Did Graham Jones do the right thing?

[garinda]

I posted in another thread that I think Graham is a good man, with a good heart.

With every fibre of my being I think how he voted was wrong.

However, even though I've been highly critical of what he's done, if I needed his help, just as he would for anyone else, I know as a certainty he'd go out of his way to give that help.

Which in my books makes him a good man still.

Though it doesn't lessen the utter frustration, shared by a greater majority, that although he said two weeks ago he had no problem with a referendum, he voted that we shouldn't be allowed that right.

[Gayle]

I have a problem with referendums in one respect. We have a system whereby the constituents vote for an MP and then they should respect our views. A referendum is basically a vote of no confidence in our MPs regardless of the outcome.

But, I think there should be some mechanism whereby big, important decisions are voted on within constituencies and then that MP has to represent the majority view of the constituency. For example at election time some issues to be debated and regardless of party policy, that MP has his or her policies decided by the constituents. I'm not sure how it would work but it would avoid some of the 'whip' deciding which way to vote issues and it would also avoid some parties being able to block votes.

I hasten to add, it would probably create anarchy

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Gayle

I have a problem with referendums in one respect. We have a system whereby the constituents vote for an MP and then they should respect our views. A referendum is basically a vote of no confidence in our MPs regardless of the outcome.

But, I think there should be some mechanism whereby big, important decisions are voted on within constituencies and then that MP has to represent the majority view of the constituency. For example at election time some issues to be debated and regardless of party policy, that MP has his or her policies decided by the constituents. I'm not sure how it would work but it would avoid some of the 'whip' deciding which way to vote issues and it would also avoid some parties being able to block votes.

I hasten to add, it would probably create anarchy

Not anarchy ... chaos maybe. But I disagree that a referendum is a vote of no confidence. Referenda are useful, perhaps necessary when an issue arises that is so important to the nation that a vote, a non-partisan vote of all qualified voters is the only sane and sensible way to resolve it. I remember reading a couple of days ago that one rebel in the House stated that if the future of Britain as an independent nation was not an important enough issue on which to call for a national vote, he didn't know what was.

In a democracy, power is invested in the people. They delegate that power to representatives in the legislative assembly (for you guys, and for us, the House of Commons) .... they delegate that power, they do not surrender it. And it is this point that many politicians choose to ignore.

[Gayle]

I've voted after a lot of consideration that he should not have voted against a referendum. Not because I necessarily think we should pull out of Europe because in general I am fairly pro-Europe (although I have to qualify that that is in principle rather than in actually the way things are going at the moment).

However, I am a believer in democracy and the general opinion seems to be that we should NOT be in Europe so therefore, that's how I think he should have voted. He should have voted with his constituents and not because his party wanted to make a protest against Cameron.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Gayle

However, I am a believer in democracy and the general opinion seems to be that we should NOT be in Europe so therefore, that's how I think he should have voted.

There should be a referendum on this issue, because the European Union is a fundamentally different body to that of the Common Market. Which we did vote to stay in, via a referendum in 1975.

Whatever we feel, either for or against continued membership, doesn't matter one iota at this stage.

Because there has been a seismic shift in how we are now governed, that needs to be ratified by a democratic vote.

Blair, Brown, and Cameron know the majority of people want this right. That's why they said, always before an election, that there will be a referendum on the E.U. Then renege on that promise, once they're elected.

It is right people be allowed their views are counted, in a referendum.

It was wrong a majority of our M.P.'s denied people this right, as an act of protectionism, just because they happen to favour E.U. membership.

As stated earlier, if the majority of people vote, for the very first time, that they want to continue our membership, I, and other sceptics will accept that decision, because it's been arrived at democratically.

A referendum is the only solution to this issue, and M.P.'s should respect the majority wishes of those who elected them, and vote to ensure it happens.

It's shameful most didn't do this, when they had the chance on Monday night.

[cmonstanley]

this is a wrong time for a referendum it would distract the markets and make it even more unstable effecting everybody who has a private pension isa etc

[cashman]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

this is a wrong time for a referendum it would distract the markets and make it even more unstable effecting everybody who has a private pension isa etc

Uttter rubbish, the proposed referendum was fer 3 choices,(1)Stay In. (2) Get Out. (3) stay in with concessions, as it wouldn't have been fer a few more years, that was ample time fer all points of view to be given to the public, at that point n informed vote would occur.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

this is a wrong time for a referendum it would distract the markets and make it even more unstable effecting everybody who has a private pension isa etc

Timing is irrelevant ... it is a matter of the importance of the question. When the question seems to concern the survival of the UK as an independent nation, it should outweigh all other matters. Or, one could pershaps go as far as to suggest that all other concerns are subsumed in the question of membership in the EU.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

this is a wrong time for a referendum it would distract the markets and make it even more unstable effecting everybody who has a private pension isa etc

Party line, blah, blah, blah.

Who are you, Mystic Meg, to say it won't be a much worse time in the future?

Who knows what a mess Europe might be in by 2015, the earliest a referendum is likely be discussed again?

Still, sweet of you to worry about those with private pensions.

What about those in Britain, who've worked hard every day of their lives, who get only a state pension, of which there are millions?

Our elderly worse off than Romania's: British pensioners among the poorest in Europe | Mail Online

This is a very clear case of right/wrong.

Either you believe E.U. membership should be put to a referendum, or you don't.

Monday night's vote was on the principle of should there be one. There was no time scale attached.

M.P.'s voted to protect the E.U., because they happen to support continued membership.

People are demanding they have a say, as their democratic right.

'Not the right time' is a pathetic cop out, and shows what a pathetic bunch those who trot it out are, because that's the best excuse they can come up with.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Eric

Timing is irrelevant ... it is a matter of the importance of the question. When the question seems to concern the survival of the UK as an independent nation, it should outweigh all other matters. Or, one could pershaps go as far as to suggest that all other concerns are subsumed in the question of membership in the EU.

That says it all Eric, I for one am sick of unelected bureaucrats over ruling the elected government at Westminster and its time the British people were allowed to have a say on the European issue, after all its 36 years since we were last asked for our views and that was on a completely different animal than we now have, people under 54 have never been allowed to air their views on the EU, its time their voices were allowed to be heard

[garinda]

Obviously all the local disquiet about the way Graham voted, hasn't registered as important enough an issue for him to write about.

Since Monday's vote, Graham has blogged about something else I'm sure is utmost on all our minds, copper theft.

Graham Jones MP

He did mention on Facebook there will be an e-petition too.

To force the government to act on this pressing problem.

I'm sure we'll be able to find it to sign up, and support his campaign for justice.

Even if he didn't support ours'.

[garinda]

Though he did blog he supported a referendum, on the Alternative Vote issue.

Graham Jones MP: The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill designed to gerrymander constituencies across the country

So we can presume he's not opposed to them per se.

Just when the result might go against what he personally supports.

So best not take that chance, and deny people their right to have their views counted.

Odd that.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by garinda

Though he did blog he supported a referendum, on the Alternative Vote issue.

Graham Jones MP: The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill designed to gerrymander constituencies across the country

So we can presume he's not opposed to them per se.

Just when the result might go against what he personally supports.

So best not take that chance, and deny people their right to have their views counted.

Odd that.

He's a politician Rindi, whenever did politicians ever do the bidding of the people, except 6 weeks before an election

[Stumped]

Originally Posted by garinda

Party line, blah, blah, blah.

Who are you, Mystic Meg, to say it won't be a much worse time in the future?

Who knows what a mess Europe might be in by 2015, the earliest a referendum is likely be discussed again?

Still, sweet of you to worry about those with private pensions.

What about those in Britain, who've worked hard every day of their lives, who get only a state pension, of which there are millions?

Our elderly worse off than Romania's: British pensioners among the poorest in Europe | Mail Online

This is a very clear case of right/wrong.

Either you believe E.U. membership should be put to a referendum, or you don't.

Monday night's vote was on the principle of should there be one. There was no time scale attached.

M.P.'s voted to protect the E.U., because they happen to support continued membership.

People are demanding they have a say, as their democratic right.

'Not the right time' is a pathetic cop out, and shows what a pathetic bunch those who trot it out are, because that's the best excuse they can come up with.

According to today's Express, the Frogs have been loading their unemployed onto UK bound trains so that, effectively, they won't have to pay them unemployment benefits - that privilege will therefore be down to the good old British tax-payer. And there are still those that think the European Union is good for us!!!

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Stumped

And succeeding!

I think we should write to our MP about it Stumped