DNA Sampling in Schools - Page 3

jambutty · 28-09-2006, 20:59

Yes it would Neil but most criminals re-offend and those non criminals who want to can volunteer and those that don’t want their DNA in a national database can opt out.

Seems fair to me.

andrewb · 28-09-2006, 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Nice can of worms Tinkerbelle.

It would appear that most contributors to this thread favour a DNA database for everybody and some advocate taking a sample at birth. They counter objections to a DNA database with the ubiquitous “If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear” and it would help to catch criminals. It would also help to trace wayward fathers, rapists and help to solve paternity cases. By the way there are also wayward mothers.

But can we just put this into some sort of perspective? What percentage of the population of the UK are convicted, known or suspected criminals? At just 1% that would be around 600,000 people. Out of those 600,000 how many have been convicted on DNA evidence alone? I would suggest that not very many. How many bodies are found in a year with no clue to the identity? DNA would be useful in such cases but should the whole population be screened to establish the identity of just a few people? How many babies are abandoned each year? Are there that many rapists, wayward fathers or paternity suits to warrant mass DNA screening? I accept that just one rape is one rape too many but should the whole of the population have to have their civil rights infringed for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population.

So some 60 million people would be, as ‘The Prisoner’ might have uttered, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed and numbered for the sake of less than 1% of the population. That is a Draconian measure too far.
A DNA profile is as accurate an ID as you can get these days garinda so if you accept that ID cards may infringe civil liberties then it follows that so does a DNA profile. I’m not a criminal or a heedless man garinda and I object to a DNA database of every living person in this land. Or because I object does that make me a criminal or a heedless man?

Pardon me Neil but the opening post stated a fact and then offered an opinion on that fact. The opinion being that Tinkerbelle thought that it would be a good idea to DNA screen school children and then asked, “What do you lot think?” Having offered an opinion and asked a question surely members have a right to reply?

No computer database is safe from prying eyes if they are determined enough and Insurance companies would relish the thought of getting a DNA profile on everybody. “Sorry Mr Bloggs we can’t insure you. Your DNA profile suggest that you have a propensity to having a heart attack before you are 60.” Or “Cancer is waiting for you.”

Or taking it even further down the Big Brother road – no Mr Jones you cannot marry Miss Green because your DNA profile suggest that any offspring might be *!!**????.

If there is to be a national DNA database it should be limited to convicted criminals and volunteers only.

Slowly and ever so surely we are staggering down the road to a total control of the people by the government, industry and commerce. A national DNA database is just the start.

The other day whilst at the checkout in Asda, Blackburn, as I handed over the money I was asked for my postcode.
“Why” I queried.
The checkout girl couldn’t tell me other than she had to ask each person for their postcode.
“Sorry but I do not want to tell you” I replied, took my change and strolled out.

Believe it or not I get phishing phone calls now. Can you tell me if it is Mr so and so who lives at xx? No prizes for guessing what my answer is. A polite answer I might add.

Spot on, I tried to say a lot of this, but don't really have the time to make long posts anymore..

Neil · 28-09-2006, 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Seems fair to me.

Seems stupid to me, I always assumed that you were an intelligent man. Seems I was wrong. Going by your thinking please can I opt out of having my car registration number being recorded, I am not a criminal and do not wish to volunteer to have it recorded.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 22:18

[Quote Jambutty]- By the way there are also wayward mothers.

Compared with wayward fathers, there is usually a clue as to who the babies mother is. It's usually belonging the nearest vagina. If it isn't, and the baby is not given to the right mother, a simple DNA test would soon rectify this.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 22:24

N.B. The man that raped a young woman in Billinge Woods in Blackburn ten years ago, was today found guilty and sentenced of that and another sex attack, all due to evidence provided by advances in DNA.

Don't talk to me about percentages of the population that may be convicted criminals. This one conviction is evidence to me that some evil bastards will be kept locked away from the public for at least a while.

Neil · 28-09-2006, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

N.B. The man that raped a young woman in Billinge Woods in Blackburn ten years ago, was today found guilty and sentenced of that and another sex attack, all due to evidence provided by advances in DNA.

So because we didn't/don't have a DNA database another poor lady had to be subjected to that terrible ordeal. If such things had existed he would have been caught after his first offence.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

So because we didn't/don't have a DNA database another poor lady had to be subjected to that terrible ordeal. If such things had existed he would have been caught after his first offence.

Yup. A lot of these old cold cases are now being reopened because more arrested criminals are having their DNA tested against unsolved crimes. There was another case were a man was found guilty in Yorkshire last month on similar DNA evidence.

If the people who object had had their wives/mothers/sisters/girlfriends attacked because some sad inadequte was allowed to go on offending, because we don't have a national DNA data base which would quicken arrests, would they change their minds?

Tinkerbelle · 28-09-2006, 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

I accept that just one rape is one rape too many but should the whole of the population have to have their civil rights infringed for the sake of a tiny percentage of the population.

It's a tiny percentage now because rape crimes very rarely get reported, if there was a national database of DNA maybe more victims of this crime would be willing to report it to the police, feeling more confident of a conviction.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 22:55

How the buggerin' hell are civil liberties being infringed?

No one has given me one acceptable valid reason yet, and I said earlier I would be the first one to bleat on about it if it did infringe significantly on our civil liberties.

Perhaps we should do away with all immigration visas and passports, because having to have one of those infringes on our precious civil liberties?

Tinkerbelle · 28-09-2006, 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

Yup. A lot of these old cold cases are now being reopened because more arrested criminals are having their DNA tested against unsolved crimes. There was another case were a man was found guilty in Yorkshire last month on similar DNA evidence.

That evil bastard Shaun Greenwood was convicted of raping that poor lass in her own home in Gt Harwood due to his DNA. He was originally arrested because he stole his 3rd victims mobile and used it which they traced back to him but his DNA connected him to his 2 previous rapes.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 23:05

Dental records.

Medical records.

Bank account.

Credit card account.

Driving licence.

Store cards.

Passports.

Mobile phones.

CCTV.

We are already tracked nearly every minute of the day. I really don't see how having us all on a national data base for our DNA will make any difference to innocent people's lives, or infringe on our civil liberties.

If just one poor person is saved from being raped/murdered by some sick bastard, or one person with amnesia is reunited with a worried family, or one family is able to have a body to bury after some terrible terrorist attack...it is in my opinion worth it.

jambutty · 29-09-2006, 13:04

Is there really a need to get personal Neil? But then that’s what some people do when they don’t have a coherent argument to put forward.

Your analogy of the car registration number is not valid because car number plates can be sold on to another owner. DNA cannot! In any case the registration of a car number plate to a vehicle and the owner of that vehicle is a legal requirement backed by the laws of the land. There is no legal requirement to submit yourself to give a DNA sample and long may it stay that way.

garinda – you and others, have your opinion about DNA databases and I accept that you are entitled to voice it and put forward your arguments justifying your opinion. Quoting individual cases out of a population of some 60 million doesn’t do a great deal to get the ‘opposition’ to change their viewpoint. In fact it could be seen as scraping the barrel in an attempt to justify your opinion on the issue.

But I, and others who object to a DNA database, are equally entitled to utter their views on the issue and ne’er the two shall agree. Thus I would suggest that we agree to disagree.

Neil · 29-09-2006, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Is there really a need to get personal Neil?

I am sorry if diagreeing with your idea is too personal for you. Would you like me to come round and wrap you up in cotton wool?

garinda · 29-09-2006, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

garinda – you and others, have your opinion about DNA databases and I accept that you are entitled to voice it and put forward your arguments justifying your opinion. Quoting individual cases out of a population of some 60 million doesn’t do a great deal to get the ‘opposition’ to change their viewpoint. In fact it could be seen as scraping the barrel in an attempt to justify your opinion on the issue.

But I, and others who object to a DNA database, are equally entitled to utter their views on the issue and ne’er the two shall agree. Thus I would suggest that we agree to disagree.

You may accuse me of scraping the barrel, though I stand by my claim that if having a national DNA database stops just one person from being murdered and/or raped it is worth it, at least I gave an example to defend my point of view.

None of the people who think it would infringe our civil liberties, have given no example to illustrate how our liberties would be impeded.

WillowTheWhisp · 29-09-2006, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

How the buggerin' hell are civil liberties being infringed?

Nicely put Rindy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinkerbelle

It's a tiny percentage now because rape crimes very rarely get reported, if there was a national database of DNA maybe more victims of this crime would be willing to report it to the police, feeling more confident of a conviction.

And perhaps the percentage of criminals would rise as more are convicted. It's like saying there isn't much crime because we don't catch many crimnals.