Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by hyndburner

But hold on. The last 5 years has seen a minority Conservative Government imposing its views on the rest of the UK. No mandate in Scotland to do so - only one MP in the whole country.

You appear to ignore the fact that this is the "United Kingdom and Northern Ireland"

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by hyndburner

[B

But hold on. The last 5 years has seen a minority Conservative Government imposing its views on the rest of the UK. No mandate in Scotland to do so - only one MP in the whole country.[/B]

What a shame your excitable views aren't matched by you knowledge of politics!
For your info we've had a coalition Government for the last 5 years. You must have heard of the Lib Dems? Perhaps not, most people haven't. However they were part of a majority Government. That's democracy.
As for a mandate in Scotland- the SNP has 18% per person more to spend on the Scottish people than the rest of the UK had. Free care homes, free prescription, free universities etc. Not bad for an unrepresented country

So anything the SNP do after the election will merely be payback time.

No it won't. Their long term aim is still to break up the UK- if they get chance they'll make impossible demands on Labour, get what they can, when even Labour have to say 'NO' they'll scream ' There you are! That's what Westminster does to the Scots. Let's have a referendum'. And they'll win it. 'Once in a lifetime'-a lifetime is now 3 or 4 years.

Originally Posted by hyndburner

Farage saying migrants should be left to drown?

Now when did he say that? You have a quote? No? I thought not. Calm down.

Or HIV patients shouldn't be treated?

Funny, he didn't say that either. He said health tourists who come for free treatment(including Aids) should have to pay for it. Badly put, he should have just mentioned that health tourism costs the NHS( that's National, not International) £2,000,000,000 every year.


Ludicrous criticism of the studio audience at the TV debate?

Well, now, was it?
102 pro Labour, SNP, Green, Plaid Cymru. All left wing, all wanting to spend more by borrowing more.
40 undecided, no opinion, no voice.
58 pro Tory and UKIP.
However you add it up that's a left wing majority of those who have an opinion!
Perhaps he had a point?

appear in public with his wife who is.....shock, horror German.......the list goes on and on

Is that mandatory? Perhaps his wife prefers her privacy. I don't really like these politicians parading their wives, children, babies, lambs, cuddly animals etc.
She's not a politician, why should she be involved? He's obviously not anti German, just anti EU.

Farage has stirred up politics but he's a poor politician- he says what he actully thinks. He hasn't learned how to lie, avoid answering a question or any of the tricks you need to succeed. Still naive. But he's a character, our politics is too overloaded with grey, boring establishment professionals. Nigel, Boris, Nicola(Heaven help us)- they liven up a very boring campaign.

[Lucysgirl]

Originally Posted by hyndburner

And if you ever need further persuasion - read up on the imposition of the Poll Tax in Scotland in the late 80s. One of the most cynical, anti democratic pieces of legislation imposed in the UK in the 20th century.

The words 'chickens' 'coming' 'home' and 'to roost' come to mind.

Quite frankly I'm sick to death of the Scots attitude towards that change in the household rates bill. All of the UK had it imposed on them and I remember the shock when we opened our our envelope (!) but it just so happened that Scotland were the first in the queue to its introduction.

Let's not forget that people wanted more local social benefits than hitherto given by "the State". Previously it was The church that provided the schools or local benefactors who provided buildings for libraries, etc. and it was farmers, mill and factory owners who provided housing for their workers and set up "Mutual Friendly Societies" for their workers retirement fund.

""The first rate was part of the Elizabethan Poor Law Act 1572, which established relief for the poor at the local parish level, paid for by inhabitants of the parish. An system of rates to fund local government and services evolved over the next three centuries ""

They ought to remember that nothing is free in this world - somebody always pays, it's just that socialists don't want to use their own money.

[Less]

Wow, all our yesterday's tied up in a few paragraphs. Haven't we moved on a little since 1572? No hanging, drawing and quartering, no workhouses, no debtor's prisons?
The church provided education to a privalaged few. Farmers and mill owners provided accommodation because they needed workers, a few of them (mainly it seems quakers) provided adequate accomodation the rest rode rough shod over all that they could.
Local benefactors? More like men of power that reached an age were they hoped making amends by supplying amenities might get their God to forgive them for the way they used to treat their fellow man.

[Margaret Pilkington]

This is exactly what politics is about. It isn't about what those in power can do to make the man in the street better off/have a better life....it is about......
Divide and rule!
Set the people against one another and while they are all arguing the toss politicians can do what the heck the like....because the man in the street is too busy to notice what is going on.

Yes, I know this is a cynical view...but it is borne of experience of life...politicians and elections.
However we vote, the b*stards will still get in...life will be no better for any of us...except those who pull the strings in Westminster.....they will have it cushy as usual.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by hyndburner

Farage saying migrants should be left to drown?

Where exactly? I can't seem to find that particular nugget of news at the moment.

Or HIV patients shouldn't be treated?

I think it was more that foreigners coming to the country solely for treatment (of HIV) by the NHS shouldn't get treatment without paying for it

Use of selective statistics?

Pots & kettles my friend, pots & kettles.

Overstatement of the negative aspects of migration with no mention of the many positive aspects?

And these benefits are ......?

Ludicrous criticism of the studio audience at the TV debate?

I think you'll find the BBC actually admitted to a bias, but of course it was all the fault of the firm they'd contracted to "Rent a mob", sorry crowd, er no, I meant audience.

Failure to appear in public with his wife who is.....shock, horror German.......

Well blow me, so's mine! If she chooses to be seen out with me that's her choice.

No mate, I detect a whiff of Ivan Pavlov's hound in your indignation.

[Lucysgirl]

Originally Posted by Less

Wow, all our yesterday's tied up in a few paragraphs. Haven't we moved on a little since 1572? No hanging, drawing and quartering, no workhouses, no debtor's prisons?
The church provided education to a privalaged few. Farmers and mill owners provided accommodation because they needed workers, a few of them (mainly it seems quakers) provided adequate accomodation the rest rode rough shod over all that they could.
Local benefactors? More like men of power that reached an age were they hoped making amends by supplying amenities might get their God to forgive them for the way they used to treat their fellow man.

Wow - what a lot of generalisation.

My reference to 1572 was specifically pertinent to local "benefits". As for the church, presumably you refer to the schools attached to the parish churches, which were either built by public subscription or by the local benefactor. It depended on the parish whether the parents had to pay. You'll notice most have got a 19th century date above the doorway. Basic knowlege is knowing how to read and prior to the era mentioned above vicars would give each household a bible and some records still survive today, this is how I know my ancestors consisting of a shepherd, his wife and 5 children were all able to read. Parents certainly had to pay if a private individual opened a school. My grandmother born in the 1880s and her several siblings each had to take tuppence to school to pay for their tuition. Those were the days when household rates or poll tax weren't so exorbitant.

You were correct in your assumption of Quakers but I think you'll find many benefactors in the 19th century were Liberals in their thinking.

[Less]

Did you mention a specific? Had you done so maybe I'd have been specific in my criticism of your post.
Your GRANDMOTHER, born in the 1880's? How old are you?
Stop trying to be clever at your own expense.

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Less

Did you mention a specific? Had you done so maybe I'd have been specific in my criticism of your post.
Your GRANDMOTHER, born in the 1880's? How old are you?
Stop trying to be clever at your own expense.

Nowt wrong with the date of 1880's for a Grandmother.
My Grandfather was born in Shoe Mill Cottages in 1853.

[hyndburner]

Originally Posted by Neil

Have you read their manifesto?

Absolutely. although everything after "UK to leave the European Union" and "Negotiation of trade agreement with the EU to enable British businesses to continue trading." is rendered meaningless, because it assumes a level of GDP from which the rest of its spending plans will be based. It doesn't mention the other EU countries laughing us out of the room when we go cap in hand seeking trade deals.

My favourite paragraph in the whole manifesto is "Support reopening of Manston airport " That'll solve all our transport problems and make talk of a third runway at Heathrow unnecessary!

Wait a minute. Support reopening of which airport? Manston, an airfield situated in, wait for it, Thurrock, which just happens to be a seat being contested by Nigel Farage. A national manifesto hijacked for a local cause!

On second thought, my use of the word 'putrid' is not quite right. a much stronger word is probably needed.......

[hyndburner]

....and while we are on the subject of UKIP, three weeks into the campaign and lets all name another UKIP politician. Ok I'll accept Carswelll and Reckless because of their high profile defections, but by all accounts they are getting cold feet, especially as one of them (I really can't be bothered to check which one) is horrified about Farages HIV comments because his father was a big noise in HIV treatment.

Anyone else? There's a Scouse bloke who often pops up but goodness knows his name, and wasn't there a woman at the Manifesto launch who looked a bit stern.

Other than that UKIP equals Nigel Farage, Nigel Farage and a bit more Nigel Farage.

[hyndburner]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

Overstatement of the negative aspects of migration with no mention of the many positive aspects?

And these benefits are ......?

Well for starters......

New EU migrants add £5bn to UK, report says - BBC News

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

No mate, I detect a whiff of Ivan Pavlov's hound in your indignation.

Many thanks. That was a new one on me. Made me reach for Google, which goes to show you learn something new every day!

[Margaret Pilkington]

And of course the BBC News is not in any way biased is it? No, of course it couldn't be!
Not that I am defending UKIP in any way I'm not. I have no allegiance to any political party.

[hyndburner]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

And of course the BBC News is not in any way biased is it? No, of course it couldn't be!

Its as biased as the rest of them. And it's quoting a report by University College London, which no doubt has been infiltrated by radical left wing extremists........

Which is probably what is needed to counter the right wing propaganda put out by the Mail, Telegraph, and Express.

This election certainly seems to be polarising opinion!

[Margaret Pilkington]

from what I have seen, the BBC is definitely biased towards the left.
So much so, that I do not trust it anymore.
I think you have to look at as many sources as possible and even then it is hard to pick the wheat from the chaff.
It certainly appears to have polarised your opinion anyway.