Do the Scots REALLY want Independance?

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J

Ken the majority up here dont want independence. The only way it would happen is if it was forced on us. Alex Salmond is good at playing games even when he knows a draw is the best he will get. I wonder if the maths he is using include a health service and armed forces never mind the benefits system. Scotland would become a 3rd world country for sure if granted independence. Just because people voted the SNP in does not mean it is because they want independence. It was moree to do with them being fed up with the Westminster puppets that were in. As there is no chance of Westminster puppets know he might find at the next election he is in opposition.

I think the people of Scotland, much as they may rail against the accursed English, have more sense than the fools in charge. Pauline MacNeill asked Mr Salmond the question and was shot down in patriotic flames by the First Minister.

It was the quip about full independence but still allowing England to subsidise the perks that Scotland receives that got me. I used to quite respect the man for his patriotism but now I realise it's based on getting everything he can from our government whilst biting the hand that feeds him.

The ultimate benefit scrounger, you might say.

[SPUGGIE J]

That is the sad thing. He is a brilliant polictitcian but needs to loose the blinkers. He has done well for Scotland but this obsession he has could undo all that he has achieved.

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I think the people of Scotland, much as they may rail against the accursed English, have more sense than the fools in charge. Pauline MacNeill asked Mr Salmond the question and was shot down in patriotic flames by the First Minister.

It was the quip about full independence but still allowing England to subsidise the perks that Scotland receives that got me. I used to quite respect the man for his patriotism but now I realise it's based on getting everything he can from our government whilst biting the hand that feeds him.

The ultimate benefit scrounger, you might say.

agree 100% add corrupt to that list

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I think the people of Scotland, much as they may rail against the accursed English, have more sense than the fools in charge. Pauline MacNeill asked Mr Salmond the question and was shot down in patriotic flames by the First Minister.

It was the quip about full independence but still allowing England to subsidise the perks that Scotland receives that got me. I used to quite respect the man for his patriotism but now I realise it's based on getting everything he can from our government whilst biting the hand that feeds him.

The ultimate benefit scrounger, you might say.

Well its only in keeping with what has gone down in history before Ken, how many of our Commonwealth brethren campaigned long and hard for their independence from Great Britain and when granted it, have been back with the begging bowl ever since, when they found out just what GB had put into their countries for years, and when they were left on their own they couldn't cope

[MargaretR]

We didn't invade and colonise countries for altruistic reasons.
We colonised to exploit their natural resources.
On our leaving it is only to be expected that they seek retribution.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

We didn't invade and colonise countries for altruistic reasons.
We colonised to exploit their natural resources.
On our leaving it is only to be expected that they seek retribution.

yeh but in good old U.S.A the indians got sod all, in Aus the abos got less, its only us that are suckers.

[Gordon Booth]

MargaretR, oh,COME ON!!Your'e on about the big bad British Empire? When the overall costs/benifits to the UK of its empire were measured the UK actually made a LOSS in financial terms.
Who left them with good government, roads,huge railway systems,who stopped them killing each other in tribal wars,selling each other as slaves?We never did what the Germans did in Namibia-ethnic extermination of the two main tribes(that's where Hitler got his Big idea from).Similarly Belgium and a few other countries.We may have been pompous and arrogant but we left them ALL better than we found them, and it didn't take long for many of them to fall back 200 years as soon as we left.This Political Correctness about the wicked British Empire makes me sick. And they are NOT seeking retribution,they're seeking money, which in many cases their dictators and governments immediatly salt away in their Swiss banks.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

We didn't invade and colonise countries for altruistic reasons.
We colonised to exploit their natural resources.
On our leaving it is only to be expected that they seek retribution.

That's not the point at all Margaret, these countries fought for their independence for Britain, they wanted free of British rule, then they're forever there with the begging bowl. When the new Government asked what cuts should be made to ease our financial situation, over 80% of people who replied said cut overseas aid. we look well continually subsidising places like India, when they are embarking on their own space programs they're just taking the ****

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

MargaretR, oh,COME ON!!Your'e on about the big bad British Empire? When the overall costs/benifits to the UK of its empire were measured the UK actually made a LOSS in financial terms.
Who left them with good government, roads,huge railway systems,who stopped them killing each other in tribal wars,selling each other as slaves?We never did what the Germans did in Namibia-ethnic extermination of the two main tribes(that's where Hitler got his Big idea from).Similarly Belgium and a few other countries.We may have been pompous and arrogant but we left them ALL better than we found them, and it didn't take long for many of them to fall back 200 years as soon as we left.This Political Correctness about the wicked British Empire makes me sick. And they are NOT seeking retribution,they're seeking money, which in many cases their dictators and governments immediatly salt away in their Swiss banks.

Spot on Gordon, if I'd have read your post first I would have had no need to submit mine

[SPUGGIE J]

Thing is though Scotland and England a afew wars over who should own it and be King etc it was never really conquered. It was the ambition of Scots to have colonies like England that lead to its downfall. When the colonial enterprise went badly wrong and failed Scotland was in effect bankrupt. So in they asked to be bailed out by England. We had the same person as Monarch but separate parliaments so part oh the deal was that it was one parliament. Oh the joys of the 1707 Act of Union. Many still say that the Scottish Lords of the time sold their own country for English gold. So in a way not conquered but betrayed and sold like slaves.

[Gordon Booth]

If the Scots hadn't carried on fighting each other while they were fighting the English it would have been more difficult for us to win.
And we were fair! The first king of a United Kingdom WAS a Scotsman-the Scottish king and even he couldn't wait to get down to London
O yes, and we were fair enough to let a load of Scotsmen rule us for 13 years.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

If the Scots hadn't carried on fighting each other while they were fighting the English it would have been more difficult for us to win.
And we were fair! The first king of a United Kingdom WAS a Scotsman-the Scottish king and even he couldn't wait to get down to London
O yes, and we were fair enough to let a load of Scotsmen rule us for 13 years.

The trouble with you Gordon is your a sadist, I'm try to forget that bunch of jocks who screwed us up for 13 years

[Gordon Booth]

Still being fair,jaysay,I must check how many of them are in our current con-dem government.
I had to put the - in con-dem or I might have been told off.

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Still being fair,jaysay,I must check how many of them are in our current con-dem government.
I had to put the - in con-dem or I might have been told off.

Only 1 blue MP up here.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

MargaretR, oh,COME ON!!Your'e on about the big bad British Empire? When the overall costs/benifits to the UK of its empire were measured the UK actually made a LOSS in financial terms.
Who left them with good government, roads,huge railway systems,who stopped them killing each other in tribal wars,selling each other as slaves?

The transport systems were built, (usually by slaves or a conquered people who had no choice if they wished to eat), not out of British altruism, but were built to facilitate troop transport and to quickly carry the goodies back to port and back to dear old Blighty.

As for tribal wars, what normally happened was that the British invaders usually aligned themselves with the stronger tribe and assisted them to overcome the lesser tribe, often to the point of extinction, thereby easing the conquest of the area.

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

We never did what the Germans did in Namibia-ethnic extermination of the two main tribes(that's where Hitler got his Big idea from).Similarly Belgium and a few other countries.

I think you will find that Hitler got the idea from the country that actually created the idea of ethnic cleansing and concentration camps, which incidentally happens to be...yeah you guessed it, good old Blighty.

During the Boer War, General Roberts (an underling of Kitchener), fighting in the Transvaal realised he could not win a guerilla war against the Afrikaaners. He used a 'scorched earth' policy, burning every farm and village in his path, keeping all prisoners, including women and children in internment camps. Camps without adequate food, water and medical supplies, thus around 25-30,000 Afrikaaners died in them. The first concentration camps.

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

We may have been pompous and arrogant but we left them ALL better than we found them,

Tell that to the Aborigine, the Afrikaaners, the Irish, the American Indian etc..etc..

There's a really great scene in the David Niven film 'A Matter of Life and Death', when he's put on trial and they bring in people of the world to stand as his jury, even back in the forties when this film was made, the Brits realised how they had stripped the assets of the empire and treated the conquered appalingly.

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

and it didn't take long for many of them to fall back 200 years as soon as we left.This Political Correctness about the wicked British Empire makes me sick. And they are NOT seeking retribution,they're seeking money, which in many cases their dictators and governments immediatly salt away in their Swiss banks.

No argument there my friend, all I'll say is look back one year in British politics, look how many of those illustrious parliamentarians in government were quietly salting away the blood, sweat and tears of the ordinary man in the street.

One last thing, I don't believe the sins of the fathers should be paid for, or apologised by, the current generation, history is history.

Sorry for the thread wander