Does power corrupt?

[Judith Addison]

It strikes me that those who criticise local councillors on this website have probably never been councillors themselves. So if you think that our performance doesn't come up to the mark or that we are motivated purely by a desire for power, why not consider standing for election yourselves and see whether you can improve the standard? You may find that being a councillor is not quite as easy as you imagined!

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Judith Addison

It strikes me that those who criticise local councillors on this website have probably never been councillors themselves. So if you think that our performance doesn't come up to the mark or that we are motivated purely by a desire for power, why not consider standing for election yourselves and see whether you can improve the standard? You may find that being a councillor is not quite as easy as you imagined!

Do you believe that the conservative party manifesto has any relevance to the day to day running of council affairs? If so in what respect?

If not why do you stand as a conservative and not as an independent?

Personally I don't have the time, inclination or lifespan to stand and fight against the closed shop of party politics that is Hyndburn Council, nor am I hypocritical enough to join a party without believing in its ideals simply to get elected.

It strikes me that those councillors/deputy mayors who don't like criticism should actually represent the people that elected them instead of making stupid comments about Kashmiri, removing benches, placing expensive pay toilets at the entrance to free toilets, butchering the town centre and giving credence to half baked, biased surveys.

Oh yeah, and maybe some of my representatives could actually represent me for ALL of the council meetings and not walk out halfway through

[Houseboy]

I would not stand for election as a councilor simply because I would not wish to become that which I have heavily criticised over the years. There is corruption at all levels in politics and I think councilors are just as suscetible as those higher up the food chain. As I said earlier, there are good councilors as well as good MP's but I still believe that most councilors do what they do for a certain amount of self-gratification and, in the case on non-independents, pushiing the bounderies of party politics.
In reply to Jay, I agree that local councilors are a good idea in principle because they do or should have the interests of local people at heart but my experience is that mostly they do not seem to listen to local people at all. Things are built that nobody seems to want building, by-laws introduced that no-one wants and only have the effect of causing difficulites to most people and, reference my point above about party politics, which still dominates local government, even though it shouldn't.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Houseboy

I would not stand for election as a councilor simply because I would not wish to become that which I have heavily criticised over the years. There is corruption at all levels in politics and I think councilors are just as suscetible as those higher up the food chain. As I said earlier, there are good councilors as well as good MP's but I still believe that most councilors do what they do for a certain amount of self-gratification and, in the case on non-independents, pushiing the bounderies of party politics.
In reply to Jay, I agree that local councilors are a good idea in principle because they do or should have the interests of local people at heart but my experience is that mostly they do not seem to listen to local people at all. Things are built that nobody seems to want building, by-laws introduced that no-one wants and only have the effect of causing difficulites to most people and, reference my point above about party politics, which still dominates local government, even though it shouldn't.

I spent 40 years around local politics and I have to say that on the whole councillors of all political colours DO try and do there best for local people, a lot of decisions they make are taken out of their hands by central and european legislation. As for party politics in local government I have long been an advocate of indendance from party at local level, but this will never happen, its the nature of the beast

[Houseboy]

I agree, Jay, that a lot of things are taken out of councilors hands by central government and Europe, this is why we are lumbered with the chaos that is our rubbish collections (my front garden looks like a recycling centre). But why, over the years and all over the country, do we constantly have decisions being made at local level that often is in opposition to what the local population actually want? I can understand if things are being passed by central government that overule local authorities but there are still things that happen that are the result of completely local government decisions.
I would be interested to see how many decisions that are made by councilors, when the votes are cast, are made according to party lines.
I think that for local government to really work to any great degree we must totally ban party politics from it altogether. Party politics has no place in local government. I believe, as I you do Jay, that we would be much better served by independents with no politcal axe to grind. Of course I am not naive enough to think that this will ever happen but it would be good wouldn't it?

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Houseboy

I agree, Jay, that a lot of things are taken out of councilors hands by central government and Europe, this is why we are lumbered with the chaos that is our rubbish collections (my front garden looks like a recycling centre). But why, over the years and all over the country, do we constantly have decisions being made at local level that often is in opposition to what the local population actually want? I can understand if things are being passed by central government that overule local authorities but there are still things that happen that are the result of completely local government decisions.
I would be interested to see how many decisions that are made by councilors, when the votes are cast, are made according to party lines.
I think that for local government to really work to any great degree we must totally ban party politics from it altogether. Party politics has no place in local government. I believe, as I you do Jay, that we would be much better served by independents with no politcal axe to grind. Of course I am not naive enough to think that this will ever happen but it would be good wouldn't it?

I'm sure 'those in the know' will disagree as they always do but national party politics actually play very little part in the policies that are made at HBC for the most part. Party viewpoints may come out in heated debates but the local Labour group is simply made up of people who are flying that flag, not slavishly adhering to national party rules which tell us how to write policies. Despite our differences, I suspect the same is largely true of the Conservative group.

Local government is a totally different beast from Westminster.

[MargaretR]

"Corruption is nature's way of restoring our faith in democracy." - Peter Ustinov

[gynn]

My experience was that 90% of the work carried out by local councillors has little political significance. How do you apply political dogma to the re-alignment of a bus stop, the complaints about bin collections or dealing with noisy neighbours?

Most decisions taken at committee are in accordance with national guidelines or officer advice. Again, not much political significance.

Some decisions DO reflect party policies, but these seem to be getting fewer and fewer. When was the Council Tax level last fixed according to political considerations, rather than simply cash limiting it at last years level?

The 'group' mentality at Hyndburn is certainly strong, and once a group decision is made, everybody is expected to stick to it, but again the decisions aren't generally governed by political colours.

And the strong 'group' mentality has been abused at times. How many Conservative councillors REALLY wanted to walk out of Council meetings? I bet most of them were raising their eyebrows at their Labour colleagues as they left the chamber!

The Kashmir issue has been raised as an example of local politicians acting politically, but I suspect the real story there is that they saw it as a hot potato that nobody wanted to handle, and they dealt with it as best they could to avoid upsetting too many people. Seems they failed on that one!

Councillors are local representatives first, and politicians a long way second!

[cashman]

Originally Posted by gynn

Some decisions DO reflect party policies, but these seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

Councillors are local representatives first, and politicians a long way second!

That nails it fer me,very well.

[susie123]

Originally Posted by Houseboy

I think that for local government to really work to any great degree we must totally ban party politics from it altogether. Party politics has no place in local government. I believe, as I you do Jay, that we would be much better served by independents with no politcal axe to grind. Of course I am not naive enough to think that this will ever happen but it would be good wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by gynn

Councillors are local representatives first, and politicians a long way second!

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

Local government is a totally different beast from Westminster.

Here in Morecambe a large group of Independents controlled Lancaster City Council for several years in the early 2000s. When a Morecambe Town Council was formed a few years ago they won all but one of the 26 seats. Since then they have split into at least three different groups which seem to fight each other all the time about local issues and have achieved very little for the town and its residents.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by susie123

Here in Morecambe a large group of Independents controlled Lancaster City Council for several years in the early 2000s. When a Morecambe Town Council was formed a few years ago they won all but one of the 26 seats. Since then they have split into at least three different groups which seem to fight each other all the time about local issues and have achieved very little for the town and its residents.

Just guessing susie but are those three groups Labour, Conservative and Liberal

[susie123]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Just guessing susie but are those three groups Labour, Conservative and Liberal

No not as far as I can make out, it's not on party lines but concerned with local issues.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by susie123

No not as far as I can make out, it's not on party lines but concerned with local issues.

Just seemed funny there is a three way split

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Ken Moss

I'm sure 'those in the know' will disagree as they always do but national party politics actually play very little part in the policies that are made at HBC for the most part. Party viewpoints may come out in heated debates but the local Labour group is simply made up of people who are flying that flag, not slavishly adhering to national party rules which tell us how to write policies. Despite our differences, I suspect the same is largely true of the Conservative group.

Local government is a totally different beast from Westminster.

In which case why align yourself with a party at all?

This is what I was trying to infer in my reply to our conservative deputy mayor..in Hyndburn you have little to zero chance of being elected unless you get into bed with one of the main parties regardless of the fact that party manifestos are irrelevant in local government..our current and previious independents are ex party members who have become disillusioned and can be discounted.

You are a card carrying member of the labour party, you can protest all you want about not slavishly adhering, but do you really think you, as an unknown immigrant from Preston would have had a chance of becoming an independent councillor in Rishton???

Originally Posted by gynn

Most decisions taken at committee are in accordance with national guidelines or officer advice. Again, not much political significance.

Some decisions DO reflect party policies, but these seem to be getting fewer and fewer. When was the Council Tax level last fixed according to political considerations, rather than simply cash limiting it at last years level?

The 'group' mentality at Hyndburn is certainly strong, and once a group decision is made, everybody is expected to stick to it, but again the decisions aren't generally governed by political colours.

And the strong 'group' mentality has been abused at times. How many Conservative councillors REALLY wanted to walk out of Council meetings? I bet most of them were raising their eyebrows at their Labour colleagues as they left the chamber!

The Kashmir issue has been raised as an example of local politicians acting politically, but I suspect the real story there is that they saw it as a hot potato that nobody wanted to handle, and they dealt with it as best they could to avoid upsetting too many people. Seems they failed on that one!

Councillors are local representatives first, and politicians a long way second!

Are you saying that council committees are pointless, other than applying a rubber stamp, since work and decisions are already made by officers and national guidelines?

Point is the Kashmiri issue WAS raised, I don't care which party or why, simple fact is that it shouldn't have been, and it should have been removed from the agenda by someone with balls, unfortunately 'party politics' which you claim is almost non existant demanded that it was given a hearing by blushing councillors, many of whom probably thought that Kashmir was a type of cardigan sold in M&S.

As for councillors not REALLY wanting to walk out...again, they should 'grow a pair', then again maybe they are afraid of being ousted from the 'party' and thus have no chance of re-election or being given the post of deputy mayor

Originally Posted by cashman

That nails it fer me,very well.

Nails it for me too Cashy...if only it were true!

[Houseboy]

The general concensus here seems to be in agreement with the idea that party politics should have no place in local government, but the disagreement appears to be how much it actually is. There must be a way of looking at voting trends locally to see how strictly local issues have been voted for and against by individual members of council, and looking at the political affiliations of those councilors to see if there are party "trends".
My point is that it is possible to be of a particular political persuasion but still have the individuality to express ones own views when faced with that which you fundamentally disagree. The problem arises, all too often, that people with any political ambition at all seem to throw principle out of the window in order to tow the party line.
At a higher level, nationally, we only have to look at what the Lib Dems have done in order to cling on to that little bit of "power". The original question here was about power corrupting and I think that the Lib Dems provide an excellent example of that. They have abandoned all their "principles" and any semblance of moral value in order to cling on to that influence and power they have gained out of all proportion to the number of votes cast for them. The Tories are doing what Tories do and, while I don't like it, I have respect because they stick to what they believe in. The Lib Dems are simply doing whatever it takes to wield power.
To go back to the original question, "Does power corrupt?" I think that the answer is yes, look at the Lib Dems.