East Accrington/phoenix projects...

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

This is a good point. However there are 2000 empty properties, mostly terraced. And the oversupply problem is worse because some people in terraced cant get into their desired type, bungalows and semis due to lack of supply.

Come on graham, read the papers its full of semis and the like, the stumbling block is the "price tag" on this type of property.Think about the first time buyer. A row of refurbished terraced properties priced at say £75,000 would sell like hot cakes, assuming a refurb cost of £20,000 on each property.Enough for the developer to make a reasonable profit on his investment

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Graham, did you watch the programme on TV, they set a budget of £18,000(that being the cost to demolish) to refurbish a property that was middle terrace and due for demolition, the project went over budget by £6,000. On completion of the project local residents were invited to view the house, all were impressed by what they saw. If the house had been put up for sale, it would have been priced at the low end, first time buyers. As I previously posted, why demolish and destroy local communities and build the artificial rubbish as they have done on the old wrists wires site. Look round you not in accrington but other areas where old property houses mills etc. have been upgraded to comply with current standards. Is there not a similar project underway in the salford/manchester area at the moment. Even the Housing Minister indicated during the programme that local councils had been told to look at refurbishment as an option.

One has just been done in Woodnook for TV. I agree with what is said. However there is an oversupply so how do we manage empty unwanted houses? I think HBC's policy is to demolish the oversupply plus some more and the shortfall will allow some new build as there is excess demand for semis and bungalows in Hyndburn. All other terraced property will be, as you have pointed out, refurbed. How, that has to be decided because you are talking about some 10,000 properties.

There are a variety of refurb schemes and I agree, they look excellent. It is amazing to see what can be done with a terraced house. I am personally disapointed that we have not moved faster with refurbs, though they will happen - eventually! What has not been decided is how to fund them but it is likely it will be a small percentage grant and some equity release/loan pegged to inflation instead of commercial lending rates. I am not sure but this is where people are going right now.

A major problem is the lack of builders and trades people. Hence much of the early work has been training at Accy College ready for the bulge in refurbs/redevelopment.

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Graham, I think on the subject of Landlords, HBC should get off its b** and enforce the resistration of all landlords within the hyndburn area.

The Govt has provided the laws for licencing and they are being inspected at the moment. Manchester is ahead of the game and will licence ALL landlords in manchester @ £120 per house. That scheme has not started just yet. They are working through it still. HBC does have staffing problems which is well documented regarding the Councils finances.

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Don't think this is about "party" graham, if it is gov. legislation then the professional officers of HBC should ensure that it's implemented, as with any legislation.

I take your point. The Council could be described as rudderless and the that the govt has put on the statute book laws, however they are not requiring Councils to implement this scheme and in areas of highy demand, they are making it not as easy to apply licencing. However Hyndburn/Manchester is low demand and restrictions are relaxed. The powers that be now need to give some political oomph to the law and implent it as they see fit. Remember we have dog fouling fines and the Conservatives have a policy of not fining but warning. As you are aware we would introduce fines, so yes there is a difference of approach and I cant find a polite and objective way of not saying Labour/Conservative!

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Come on graham, read the papers its full of semis and the like, the stumbling block is the "price tag" on this type of property.Think about the first time buyer. A row of refurbished terraced properties priced at say £75,000 would sell like hot cakes, assuming a refurb cost of £20,000 on each property.Enough for the developer to make a reasonable profit on his investment

The high price tag of semis perversly allows developers to demolish and rebuild [I am not saying that is right but more where we are at]. Developers want large brownfield sites.

I think you are right in the main. However there are 2000 empty homes in the Borough and another 3000 at the top of the terraced house market where households want a semi or bungalow out of 21,000 terraced properties. That leaves 5000 unwanted terraced and 16,000 wanted terraces. So I think its more of an issue of the margins and not the bulk. There is a case that made more desireable some of the 3000 who want to move to a semi or a bungalow may change there mind and that even some of those in a semi may change also to a new refurbed terrace. Two lots of private consultants have visted Hyndburn to access this equation and there view is that is not likely. The demand for a garden, drive, privacy, new build is quite strong among a section of terraced house owners and no amount of niceness about a terrace will dampen their desire. Hence there is a balance that has to be made.

As you say though, they should be cherished as part of our history and refurbed where at all possible.

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

The last survey had 1900 empties. In theory prices should go down but the housing market is linked to other markets, particularly the stock market, most acutely through the buy to let market.

Did'nt think housing prices were linked to the stock market, thought it was more like supply and demand that controlled house prices in any given area of the country. But I'll go along with the speculator bit.

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

One has just been done in Woodnook for TV. I agree with what is said. However there is an oversupply so how do we manage empty unwanted houses?

Why not invite one of the big league Main contractors to refurbish one, and see what happens

A major problem is the lack of builders and trades people. Hence much of the early work has been training at Accy College ready for the bulge in refurbs/redevelopment.

Wow, don't understand that statement graham, why have Barrett a major house builder got itself involved in a small development in spring hill (the ex rists site) cause there is rich pickings to be had in the spring hill area at a later date.

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Did'nt think housing prices were linked to the stock market, thought it was more like supply and demand that controlled house prices in any given area of the country. But I'll go along with the speculator bit.

What has happened ost 9/11 was stock and shares became a bit more dicey and a lot of money was re-routed into property and capital fueling the northern housing boom. And as that became a prosperous market more investors saw quick gains. All estate agents had several multi millionaire clients on their books ordered to enter the buy to let market regardless. Many investors were not even interested in which properties were bought or whether they were in fact let as profits from rising prices outstripped all considerations about rent. A false speculative market that curiously had nothing to do with household demand and everything to do with speculator demand. A bit like pieces of art really. Perceived value rather than actual value. In theory the market should re-adjust as quickly as soon as the speculators pull out. However they aren't and the original housing market in Hyndburn was dampened below its actual/real value. These factors account for the exceptional increases in house values.

This has actually been tragic. Not only have we created a bunch of non wealth creating millionaires, but a lot of first time buyers may have difficulty. The private rented market is more problematic and accounts for 11% of all houses in Hyndburn. Landlords can see how much they will benefit from a high price sale and so charge rent equally accordingly in order to stay renting.

I have put the peculier situation to strategic housing; that empty properties do not impact on rent ie supply and demand doesnt work because landlords are working on a sale or rent equation and that sale prices are determind not by supply and demand but by surplus capital in the economy. The old brake on this was council housing which afforded low rents and made high house prices unrealistic. With RTB and a diminshing low rent council sector, expanding private sector rents can be forced up considerably. Its a strange set of circumstances which Keith Hill, the Housing minister could not understand when I quizzed him last year.

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Why not invite one of the big league Main contractors to refurbish one, and see what happens

I think this will happen when we get further down the track on refurbs.


Wow, don't understand that statement graham, why have Barrett a major house builder got itself involved in a small development in spring hill (the ex rists site) cause there is rich pickings to be had in the spring hill area at a later date.

With refurbs most work will be done by local tradespeople. If the refurb programme had been rolled out whilst we had a chronic shortage of tradespeople the outcome would have been predictable and expensive. So part of this regen scheme is to put in place tradespeople who can soak up the demand that will surge. Not only that in reverse is gives us the chance to create proper jobs for local people on decent wages instead of the money going to out of town companies. Of course training takes a few years to come through.

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

I take your point. I cant find a polite and objective way of not saying Labour/Conservative!

Will accept that one

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

With refurbs most work will be done by local tradespeople. If the refurb programme had been rolled out whilst we had a chronic shortage of tradespeople the outcome would have been predictable and expensive. So part of this regen scheme is to put in place tradespeople who can soak up the demand that will surge. Not only that in reverse is gives us the chance to create proper jobs for local people on decent wages instead of the money going to out of town companies. Of course training takes a few years to come through.

That's a good one graham, work for local people that's nice. But I would not think so, I don't think hyndburn has more than two or three companies that could handle that scale of work, are we not talking, Project Management, CDM Regulations etc, etc. Was there not major refurbs on council houses years ago, were local contractors involved then.........NO they were major league contractors, reason because they are the only ones that have the backup and staff to cope with such a programme. After building on a small site Barrett must be in the running for a major project..........On a plate so to speak

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

That's a good one graham, work for local people that's nice. But I would not think so, I don't think hyndburn has more than two or three companies that could handle that scale of work, are we not talking, Project Management, CDM Regulations etc, etc. Was there not major refurbs on council houses years ago, were local contractors involved then.........NO they were major league contractors, reason because they are the only ones that have the backup and staff to cope with such a programme. After building on a small site Barrett must be in the running for a major project..........On a plate so to speak

I Know. But its all stitched up now. One contractor, several streams of professional advice. Legal deals that favour the Council. In projects like this Councils know how to gain the upper hand.

Shame elsewhere, supermarkets and mult nationals, particuarly on planning have an army of suited guys that drive coach and horses through the law and residents concerns and interests of the local economy. Its interesting to see how BwD are fighting back and I have to say thay would give Tescos a run for their money if they had to. Tesco's would floor Hyndburn BC !!!

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

I Know. But its all stitched up now. One contractor, several streams of professional advice. Legal deals that favour the Council. In projects like this Councils know how to gain the upper hand.

Just as HBC did with the recent Broadway development.

[Graham Jones]

Originally Posted by park381

Just as HBC did with the recent Broadway development.

Well Broadway stangely is all public money so they will only have to tender for the work, most of which is underground, pipes, foundations etc... The Arndale Centre have pulled out so the section between Broadway and Arndale wont get done as we speak. The Ob had reported they were to commit £60k which wasnt quite the case.

[park381]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones

Well Broadway stangely is all public money so they will only have to tender for the work, most of which is underground, pipes, foundations etc... The Arndale Centre have pulled out so the section between Broadway and Arndale wont get done as we speak. The Ob had reported they were to commit £60k which wasnt quite the case.

I refered to the problems HBC had with the contractors on the new build broadway development not the proposed refurbishment of the central area, which should have been included in the new build project any way. The contractors should have been made to put right the enabling work they did to facilitate the new build. Why should public money be used to put something right that should have been part of the new build contract in the first place.