education fees

[Margaret Pilkington]

Gayle, you are right about us wanting better for our children, but we have to recognise that not all children are academically gifted, and we have to imbue them with the value of their contribution to society and work in whatever capacity pleases and interests them.
It seems to me that what we are saying, (without actually saying it in words) is that you cannot be a valid memeber of society unless you have been to Uni.

Well I have been to the university of life.....it is one where a cap and gown is unnecessary, but you have free rein to exercise your brain in whatever field of work you find interesting(and of course, will pay the bills)....in this university you never actually graduate, because there is always something new and interesting to learn. That is. of course, while you are still interested in learning.
Learning is a lifelong thing. We need to let our children know that...and that if they choose a career emptying the bins(but they are happy doing that) then that is OK.

[Margaret Pilkington]

To illustrate this point........I worked with a very capable Doctor......capable, but miserable. His family members were all Doctors(one of them was a very eminent and fiery Consultant)....this young man had been coerced into a career in medicine because that was what those in his family did....Medicine!
All this young man wanted to be was........a postman!
He was on the brink of giving up his medical career when his family decided he should go on a break to France to 'think through' his decision.
He never came back. He was killed in a motobike accident, so he never got to be a postman after all.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Gayle, you are right about us wanting better for our children, but we have to recognise that not all children are academically gifted, and we have to imbue them with the value of their contribution to society and work in whatever capacity pleases and interests them.
It seems to me that what we are saying, (without actually saying it in words) is that you cannot be a valid memeber of society unless you have been to Uni.

Well I have been to the university of life.....it is one where a cap and gown is unnecessary, but you have free rein to exercise your brain in whatever field of work you find interesting(and of course, will pay the bills)....in this university you never actually graduate, because there is always something new and interesting to learn. That is. of course, while you are still interested in learning.
Learning is a lifelong thing. We need to let our children know that...and that if they choose a career emptying the bins(but they are happy doing that) then that is OK.

I'm not saying that it's the only route. As i said before, i don't have a degree. But, if my two (they're a bit too young to think about it now) decide in future years that they want to go for a degree then i want to make sure that it's as accessible as possible for them. Equally, if they decide they don't want it, then I won't be too upset. However, I do want the best for them in whatever they decide to do.

[Margaret Pilkington]

A sensible and common-sense approach Gayle.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Gayle

....if my two (they're a bit too young to think about it now) decide in future years that they want to go for a degree then i want to make sure that it's as accessible as possible for them...

Very true, also it should be free for all and not dependant on what money parents earn. I don't like means testing for anything as a general rule.

[Less]

Originally Posted by TJH

Some jobs do require a degree.

Yes your right, however what all jobs require is the right person in the right place, to Bar someone because of qualifications is sometimes a retro step, but...

To qualify or to Practice in certain fields you need a degree, (to prove you took the test), let's be honest, some people with such qualifications are a danger to themselves and all that they meet.

I hope, that a Doctor with various initials after his/her name, whether he's a Professor, a Doctor or a Mr. hasn't just scraped through because his parents paid for this career choice.

I want someone that really, really, despite the hardships, has made it to their chosen vocation.

[MargaretR]

Originally Posted by Less

Yes your right, however what all jobs require is the right person in the right place, to Bar someone because of qualifications is sometimes a retro step, but...

To qualify or to Practice in certain fields you need a degree, (to prove you took the test), let's be honest, some people with such qualifications are a danger to themselves and all that they meet.

I hope, that a Doctor with various initials after his/her name, whether he's a Professor, a Doctor or a Mr. hasn't just scraped through because his parents paid for this career choice.

I want someone that really, really, despite the hardships, has made it to their chosen vocation.

I agree.
I have a nephew who was cajoled into medical school.
When I last met him he said he was specialising in anaesthetics because he prefer his patients unconcious

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Neil

Very true, also it should be free for all and not dependant on what money parents earn. I don't like means testing for anything as a general rule.

Both Scotland and Wales have now scrapped the student loan scheme, that Labour introduced in 1997, and have returned to means tested maintenance grants.

I have an honours degree, and it did ultimately give me access to a career I loved. However I know plenty of people who achieved similar success by starting on the shop floor, so to speak, and did better than those who spent three or four years doing a degree.

In theory I think the old means tested maintenance grants were fairer than the new student loan system, in that it allowed more people, from differing backgrounds, greater access to further education. It's okay starting your working life with a £25,000 debt if you're destined for a well paid job in the City, but it must put people off other careers, teaching for example, which aren't as well paid.

Further education isn't for everyone, nor should it be, but it should be accessible to those who want it, irrespective of how well off your parents are.

The student loan scheme does allow that, but I think the old maintenance grant scheme allowed a more inclusive for all access to further education, and I think the government were wrong to scrap the grant system.

[blazey]

I genuinely believe University education is too open to just anyone. The problem is mostly that there are too many low quality universities offering some pretty poor quality degrees, some of which aren't really even necessary at degree level because too much focus has been put on paper-based qualifications and not enough attention on actual transferable skills.

I go to University with many people who believe a degree is enough to get them a graduate job. The problem is obviously that everyone can get a degree these days and the average classification of degree is a 2.1

Companies obviously value a 2.1 in subjects more than others, most employers prefer a 2.1 and a well-rounded student than someone with just a 1st class degree and there are all sorts of other factors taken into account by them that are entirely ignored by a lot of students.

Many of my friends comment on my extremely busy schedule but they are all pretty certain that I'll end up in a decent paid graduate job at the end of it all, whereas there are students much more academically stronger than me who are really worried about their futures.

Opening education up to everyone has pretty much created a false sense of security and basically a lot of lazy students who live as easily as they can til they are forced to work, most often than not in ordinary jobs rather than the better paid graduate jobs.

I'm lucky enough to have the drive to do the extra-curricular work though admittedly I could work harder for my actual degree and push up my marks, but I speak to big employers everyday so I know what they want, and I make it my aim to make sure I have that information. Sadly many people don't and they drag the quality of everyones degrees down with them and so many universities get some pretty talented students that have ability to succeed in careers but may not be particularly academically talented or whatever, but they're just constantly overshadowed by the low quality students who go just to avoid real life.

And even half the people on accyweb have commented on how out of touch students like me and Andrew are with real life so the stereotype must have developed from somewhere and it certainly isn't the traditional view of university students.

University did need to be reformed but it was a bad idea opening it up to everyone through tuition fees and creating a load of useless degrees in my opinion and now we all pay for that by having to work twice as hard just to overcome some of the problems it has created.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by garinda

Both Scotland and Wales have now scrapped the student loan scheme, that Labour introduced in 1997, and have returned to means tested maintenance grants.

I have an honours degree, and it did ultimately give me access to a career I loved. However I know plenty of people who achieved similar success by starting on the shop floor, so to speak, and did better than those who spent three or four years doing a degree.

In theory I think the old means tested maintenance grants were fairer than the new student loan system, in that it allowed more people, from differing backgrounds, greater access to further education. It's okay starting your working life with a £25,000 debt if you're destined for a well paid job in the City, but it must put people off other careers, teaching for example, which aren't as well paid.

Further education isn't for everyone, nor should it be, but it should be accessible to those who want it, irrespective of how well off your parents are.

The student loan scheme does allow that, but I think the old maintenance grant scheme allowed a more inclusive for all access to further education, and I think the government were wrong to scrap the grant system.

Public services like teaching, nursing and police-related courses, just to name a few of the obvious ones, are generally more financially supported by the government. I lived next door to 4 PGCE students last year who got quite large grants for doing their course.

Where as I for example have to fork out £10,000 (on average) to pay for my course after university and then support myself somehow. Some law students get training contracts with large firms who can afford to pay these costs but these are limited.

Shame how you can get more support for wanting to be a teacher but if you want to be a lawyer you still have to compete against the old boys...

[garinda]

Originally Posted by blazey

Public services like teaching, nursing and police-related courses, just to name a few of the obvious ones, are generally more financially supported by the government. I lived next door to 4 PGCE students last year who got quite large grants for doing their course.

Where as I for example have to fork out £10,000 (on average) to pay for my course after university and then support myself somehow. Some law students get training contracts with large firms who can afford to pay these costs but these are limited.

Shame how you can get more support for wanting to be a teacher but if you want to be a lawyer you still have to compete against the old boys...

Well I know a girl who read chemistry at Jesus College Oxford, who has gone into teaching now, and she recieved no extra help, other than the normal student loan scheme.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by garinda

Well I know a girl who read chemistry at Jesus College Oxford, who has gone into teaching now, and she recieved no extra help, other than the normal student loan scheme.

How long ago was this?

There are DEFINITELY bursaries available because a lot of my friends are doing it because of that incentive.

I personally see teaching as a profession I would only do after working in a more... experience-developing role in that area, as I think there are enough low quality teachers as it is and I don't think its right that I teach something I've only just learnt myself.

Unless its high school level and lower.

How can you pass on experience when you have none?

Some of my best lecturers at University have a Phd or have been/are practising lawyers. Those that wanted to be lawyers but failed have become lecturers as a last resort and aren't particularly good.

The incentive at Lancaster is that you can lecture whilst studying for your Phd... therefore bringing in a reasonable income and being able to get further qualifications...

I disagree with it but at least they have genuine interest in academia where failed lawyers becoming lecturers because it's the 'next best thing' is a bit... well... you can put a word to that.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by blazey

How long ago was this?

There are DEFINITELY bursaries available because a lot of my friends are doing it because of that incentive.

I personally see teaching as a profession I would only do after working in a more... experience-developing role in that area, as I think there are enough low quality teachers as it is and I don't think its right that I teach something I've only just learnt myself.

Unless its high school level and lower.

How can you pass on experience when you have none?

Some of my best lecturers at University have a Phd or have been/are practising lawyers. Those that wanted to be lawyers but failed have become lecturers as a last resort and aren't particularly good.

The incentive at Lancaster is that you can lecture whilst studying for your Phd... therefore bringing in a reasonable income and being able to get further qualifications...

I disagree with it but at least they have genuine interest in academia where failed lawyers becoming lecturers because it's the 'next best thing' is a bit... well... you can put a word to that.

She graduated from Jesus in 2003.

Perhaps because she read chemistry, and didn't know she'd go into teaching afterwards, had something to do with it.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by garinda

She graduated from Jesus in 2003.

Perhaps because she read chemistry, and didn't know she'd go into teaching afterwards, had something to do with it.

Maybe, I know the girls next door all knew they wanted to be teachers and most people I know seem to be that way.

Sadly I don't know many very intelligent people that want to be teachers, though I know some amazingly creative people who want to be art teachers and things like that, for kids. I think that is fantastic.

I think all the quality teachers stick to teaching in quality establishments unless they're the type who think they can really change the world and stuff, just to be general, obviously not the world but you know, the whole education system and attitudes and things like that.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well Neil I don't usually read posts that long, as I've said before I loose the will to live after the first 3 lines, but I did read this post, and what you say is spot on, when you get people going to Uni to take a degree on David Beckham its time to draw the line, karma on its way for this post Neil, when it lets me

I do read posts this long, esp in winter But what Neil is saying applies not only to Britain, but to many other countries, Canada amongst them .... we are short of skilled workers, esp. electricians, pipe fitters, plumbers, carpenters, nurses etc. Soon there will be major opportunities in Ontario for those skilled in any of the trades related to the refurbishing of nuclear power plants .... and after this little recession is over and we come barrell assing out of it into a boom, the construcion industry will need bodies .... and there will be lots of opportunities in the oil patch for those with experience operating and maintaining heavy equipment. In short (well shorter) we have lots of people with degrees, and not enough with practical skills.