English Law - Page 3

WillowTheWhisp · 28-09-2006, 15:16

It's not the same as being an independant witness to a crime. If it's your car it's your responsibility and who you lend it to is your responsibility just as it would be if you owned a rifle or something and lent it to somebody to do a spot of rabbit shooting and they used it to hold up a bank. Yep,pretty scary to have to face up to the fact that the person you lent it to broke the law but maybe it would make you think twice about lending things or at least who you lend them to.

I've got a personal axe to grind about drivers who claim "it wasn't me" because several years ago as my late husband and a friend were going down Oxford St and across to ASDA a speeding loony came careering along Hyndburn Rd and smashed into our car. Our friend got the registration number as it sped off and they reported it to the police. Both hubby and friend and several witnesses said they saw a man driving the car.

When the police traced the car and got to the house the owner was on the wrong side of several cans of lager and a bottle of vodka. He swore he'd never been out in the car and his wife said she'd been driving. Despite the fact that everyone saw a man! Of course she was sober and he was drunk so it was easier for he to claim that she panicked and was full of remorse than for him to admit he'd been driving whilst severl times over the limit.

No way to prove anything of course so he got away with drink driving and probably went on to do it again.

AccyJay · 28-09-2006, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Does the German camera flash a bright light to illuminate the car and driver? If it does it would need to be at head height to see the driver’s head and if it is at head height and it does flash the flash could blind the driver and cause an accident. If it is set at the same height as normal speed cameras driving with the sun visor down would prevent it from capturing your face.
Good question, they used to. Was it something to do with when hitting pedestrians they were getting badly injured on what to all intents and purposes is a knife over the front wheel?

I haven't got a clue how they work, i just know that they do. Sorry

Gayle · 28-09-2006, 15:21

The problem with your argument Jambutty is that in this instance you are not reporting a crime. You are establishing your guilt or innocence - the crime has already been reported by the camera.

You can either accept that you are guilty (i.e. by taking the rap whether it was you who were speeding or not) or prove that you are innocent by stating who is guilty.

jambutty · 28-09-2006, 15:51

You’ve got it on one Gayle. The crime may have been reported but not the criminal who perpetrated the crime. Forcing a person to give evidence is unfair and wrong.

In any case in English Law I do not have to establish my innocence, it is up to the prosecution to establish my guilt. That law has been around for over 300 years.

garinda · 28-09-2006, 16:47

I think I will get someone to dresss up as a Pantomime horse with me to hold up a bank.

They maybe able to charge the horse with the crime, if we are caught, but we'll be fine as they won't be able to prove who was at the front of the horse holding the gun, and who was the horses arse.

Neil · 28-09-2006, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

and who was the horses arse.

Just say it was chav, we will all back you up that he is a ass

Mancie · 29-09-2006, 01:18

jambutty, you stated

There is nothing in English Law that states you MUST report a crime and MUST give evidence against the criminal if you witness a crime and subsequently you cannot be fined or imprisoned for not doing so.

But there are laws in place such as "witholding information" and "failing to report a crime" that , if the Police or CPS decided to charge the owner of the vehicle would stand up in court, if you feel that motorists are being discriminated , that may be the case but these laws exist.

What about a scenario where an employee is driving a company pool car and an accident occurs and the driver simply drives away, if the Police make enquires and the employer refuses to name the person driving that vehicle, I would imagine they would come down on them pretty hard.

I do understand the pressure the car owner is under when its a friend or family member involved and I would just take it on the chin myself.. but to say its a special law just aimed at motorists in not the case.

Mancie · 29-09-2006, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

I think I will get someone to dresss up as a Pantomime horse with me to hold up a bank.

They maybe able to charge the horse with the crime, if we are caught, but we'll be fine as they won't be able to prove who was at the front of the horse holding the gun, and who was the horses arse.

Not many people are gonna admit to being the horses arse.. so just say you were the head and take the rap.

Neil · 29-09-2006, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancie

I do understand the pressure the car owner is under when its a friend or family member involved and I would just take it on the chin myself.. but to say its a special law just aimed at motorists in not the case.

There is a simple answer to that one. If you don't have what it takes to shop whoever could be driving your car, then don't lend it to anybody.

Neil · 29-09-2006, 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Was it something to do with when hitting pedestrians they were getting badly injured on what to all intents and purposes is a knife over the front wheel?

It should face forwards like a car plate so the cameras can see it.

MUMMIBOO · 29-09-2006, 12:57

The person who was driving the car deserved to be shopped to the cops because they show you no respect in the first place by speeding whilst driving your car.

If that fails then you take the rap and make sure you get your money back and let them know they are now your number 1 taxi firm!!

WillowTheWhisp · 29-09-2006, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

It should face forwards like a car plate so the cameras can see it.

I had to actually go and look at Busman's to see it not being there because I had almost convinced myself that there was one like that Neil.

jambutty · 29-09-2006, 13:35

Before a charge of withholding information can be made to stick Mancie the prosecution have to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you have that information to withhold. The same applies to failing to report a crime. Now unless a cop or anyone else saw you witnessing a crime there is no case to answer. Suspecting that you have information that may aid a prosecution is not enough. But then if a cop or others saw the crime being committed why would they want you?

However the motoring laws on this issue were changed some time back in an attempt to close a loophole with regard to motorists being flashed by speed cameras. So that law was changed just for motorists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

It should face forwards like a car plate so the cameras can see it.

That would be just as bad as number plate placed fore and aft if it came into contact with soft tissue. When I got a fairing for my old Triumph Thunderbird I was entitled to remove the number plate over the front mudguard but I had to have the registration number displayed on the fairing. Today motorbikes and scooters do not need to display a number plate at the front even though most scooters have a flat front facing surface that could accommodate a number plate.

I’m not too sure if this is enshrined in the law but the consensus seems to be that a camera will not flash unless the car is travelling at 10% plus 2 mph above the limit. This is to avoid costly arguments in court about the accuracy of speedometers in vehicles. Even brand new cars can have a speedo that isn’t as accurate as could be expected. The thickness of the needle and the marking on the meter plus parallax error can make a reading by the driver inaccurate. Thus in a 30 mph zone you will not get flashed until you exceed 35 mph. 46 mph in a 40 mph zone up to 79mph in a 70 mph zone. However I wouldn’t rely on that premise.

WillowTheWhisp · 29-09-2006, 13:47

But what about the mudguard itself then? That could come into contact with soft tissue and cause damage. Surey they can make a less damaging sort of number plate? Squishy plastic?

jambutty · 29-09-2006, 15:40

Yes there might be damage to a body or more likely a head hitting the mudguard WillowTheWisp but the mudguard, although made from steel, didn’t have any sharpish edges on it that could come into contact with soft tissue.

Number plates were made from steel plate and an impact along its edge was almost as good as hacking someone with a blunt knife.

Squishy plastic front number plates? It’s a thought I suppose but a front number plate would have to have some sort of rigidity in it and a rigid edge is the dangerous bit.