Euro Rebate

[Wynonie Harris]

Blair has betrayed his own country in the interests of his ego. Our contribution will rise by an amazing 63%, from £3.5 billion a year to £6 billion a year. Meanwhile, the hugely wasteful CAP which takes up 40% of the EU budget and benefits the French more than anybody else goes unreformed. So French farmers will grow fat while we have to cut back on school and hospital building progammes. All this so that Blair could protect his legacy as a great European leader. As far as I'm concerned, he should be clapped in irons and thrown in the Tower of London.

However, perhaps I'm missing something. Could any Labour councillors or party members justify their leader's actions?

[chav1]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

he should be clapped in irons and thrown in the Tower of London.

is that the famous tower in london where traitors got their heads stuck on spikes as a warning to others..?

seems like tony blair is a national hero..


in france

[Wynonie Harris]

Nice thought, Chav...that'd wipe that stupid grin off his face!

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Nice thought, Chav...that'd wipe that stupid grin off his face!

He would find some poor lakey to take his place as this issue would be anyones fault but his. Maybe he is after being a French citizen when he retires.

[chav1]

well if i had mad as much of a balls up of the uk as he has i woudlnt want to stay here either

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Interesting that you seem to think that Euroscepticism is confined to Tories. I'm not particularly a Tory (more a cynical, floating voter) and I would suggest that a huge number of non-Tories in this country are deeply suspicious of the projected European Superstate. I was also interested in your use of the phrase "...the removal of democracy when it happens to them". So, you admit that democracy has been removed from this country, then?

Actually I owe you an apology, I meant to state perceived removal. Mind you when you add an extra tier of government somewhere along the line someone loses out.

Also I didn't mean to suggest you were a Tory, the old far left and right both seem loathe to accept the inevitable. Be they Dennis Skinner, Tony Benn, Norman Tebbit or Enoch Powell.

I am not particularly in favour of Europe nor against it. On a personal level I can see some very good things have come from Brussels/Strasbourg/The Hague such as the Social Chapter. Some real clangers have as well (not least expenses for MEP's.), but in reality within the next 25 years Europe will be to all intents and purposes one State. We will all be using the Euro and being ruled from the mainland. Realistically this will not change mine nor your life the only real difference will be the non necessity of passports when we travel.

I just feel we should embrace it now so we have a bigger say when it happens.

[Wynonie Harris]

I'll give you one thing, Stanaccy, at least you're honest about it. This makes a refreshing change from the vast majority of Euro-enthusiasts who tell us that of course the EU poses no danger to our independence, we will remain a sovereign state and all the other bull that they regularly peddle.

However, I totally and utterly reject your vision of a future as one state "ruled from the mainland." To surrender our democracy to a vast, remote, unaccountable body like this would be a disaster for our country.

I also reject your view that only fringe figures on the old far left and right refuse to accept the inevitable (by the "inevitable" I am assuming you mean the "inevitability" of a European Superstate). I think you will find that very large numbers of people in this country refuse to accept the dominance of the EU as inevitable and Blair's sell-out may have increased their awareness of the dangers that lie ahead!

[SPUGGIE J]

Hopefully this whole episode opened some eyes and started people thinking. If Europe wants "superstate status" it has to be all equal not some bullying others to get there own way. For this to go ahead soveriegnty would have to be surrendered something we are proud of and people gave up their lives for. A bunch of self serving gimps on the continent telling us how we should be governed and considering what hassle we get with EU directives know what will we get if we were part of this superstate.

[chav1]

how did france a country that surrenedered in bothe world wars ever get so much power

maybe we should just threaten the frogs with an invasion and they will shut up

[SPUGGIE J]

Better check blair aint sold the armed forces to europe as well first.

[Bad-Wolf]

France only surrender was the second world war!

As for selling the armed forces the Defence Secretary has already annouced that the building of the hulls of most Royal Navy warships are to out sourced to other countries because it is cheaper than paying British workers!

[SPUGGIE J]

Dosnt say much for buy British. I they gave up some of the wasteful spending and that pot of money that goes to Euroland we could afford to build our own navel ships. Wonder if the outsourcing had anything to do with European compition laws? Only France gets to ignore them.

[Stanaccy]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

I'll give you one thing, Stanaccy, at least you're honest about it. This makes a refreshing change from the vast majority of Euro-enthusiasts who tell us that of course the EU poses no danger to our independence, we will remain a sovereign state and all the other bull that they regularly peddle.

However, I totally and utterly reject your vision of a future as one state "ruled from the mainland." To surrender our democracy to a vast, remote, unaccountable body like this would be a disaster for our country.

I also reject your view that only fringe figures on the old far left and right refuse to accept the inevitable (by the "inevitable" I am assuming you mean the "inevitability" of a European Superstate). I think you will find that very large numbers of people in this country refuse to accept the dominance of the EU as inevitable and Blair's sell-out may have increased their awareness of the dangers that lie ahead!

I keep trying to say this but everyone either refuses to listen or just doesn't want to. The loss of our rebate and the "sell out" as you keep calling it was signed away by John Major in Maastricht in Novemer (I believe) 1993.

This was the one treaty since the Treaty of Rome in 1960 that sealed the way forward for Europe. Everything since then has been a bit part. There will always be arguments over annual budgets, the CAP (I know the French will fight tooth and nail for it but I don't see any of our farmers complaining about it.) and one of the main problems as with any bureaucratic organisation is corruption. Hopefully the corruption will be cut with the new security measures coming into place next April (again I think).

As for surrendering our democracy, wrong phrase I think, just moving our seat of government. I also believe we will be a federal state with only major decisions made on the mainland (similar to the US model).

Pity no politician from any persuasion has entered into this one I feel it would be a good forum for them to put their view across.

[Wynonie Harris]

Although I agree that Maastricht was (in my view) yet another disastrous move towards a European superstate, I don't see how it affected our rebate which has still remained intact until now. The Government originally said that the rebate was not up for renegotiation...which has proved to be a lie. Then that the rebate would only be cut in return for cuts in CAP...which turned out to be another lie and was always going to prove difficult anyway, as Blair had already agreed to the CAP budget until 2013 three years ago. However, he should have grasped the nettle and told Chirac and the rest of them that if they didn't agree to reopen CAP talks, he'd simply pack his bags and come home. But of course, all he's bothered about is his "legacy" as a good European, then of course, there might be that cushy EU job in the future just like his mates, Mandy and Kinnock.

As for corruption, yes, it exists in any bureaucratic organisation, but not on the same breathtakingly grand scale as it does in the EU. But, of course, that'll be cut by "the new security measures coming into place next April." Just in time to see a phalanx of pigs floating over the European parliament.

And, quite frankly, I don't want to live in some kind of federal state based on the US model. I'm reasonably happy with our present arrangement, despite its many faults. I would, however, like to see a government that shows just a little bit of mettle by starting to reclaim some of the many powers that the EU have taken away from us.

I do agree with you, though, that there has been a conspicuous absence of political party members contributing to this thread...I wonder why?

[mani]

the shame is about the eu htey shud spend it with regards to where the most beneficial is gonna b - eg urban areas

not knockin the farmers but i dont see how the few shud mean lower standards for the majority