Europe as it is

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Balbus

67 years of peace in Europe (apart from the Balkans) - the longest period ever. Isn't that worth something? One of the greatest features of my life is never having to fight any war or do any form of military service. Most of us are Germans anyway - where do people think the Angles and the Saxons came from?

Perhaps, before you make blunt observations about the genetic makeup of Britons you should do a little research. Seems like we are more neolithic than Germanic. Modern Germans (the ones without jackboots and neat looking uniforms, and great leather coats) possibly have the same ancestors.

British Have Changed Little Since Ice Age, Gene Study Says

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Eric

For example, it is a valid and defensible argument that if there had been no Third Reich, there would have been no Israel.

I'm quite prepared to slag the Germans as much as any true Brit, (in fact living here I think gives me a more valid & in depth insight into the Germanic mentality) but to say they are responsible for Israel I find difficult to countenance.

The resettling of the Jewish people has been ongoing since the late 1800's but it was really only at the end of WWII that the focus was intensified. Jewish refugees & survivors of the Holocaust needed a focal point & a place to define as their own, it was he British who controlled Palestine & they then divided & designated the land for the use of the Jewish people, ratified by the UN.

BBC NEWS


Founding of the State of Israel

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Eric

British Have Changed Little Since Ice Age, Gene Study Says

So that makes me a true Brit, seeing as me all my male ancestors had carrot tops, and so did my offspring.
I think Blue eyes is also part of it as well.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

I'm quite prepared to slag the Germans as much as any true Brit, (in fact living here I think gives me a more valid & in depth insight into the Germanic mentality) but to say they are responsible for Israel I find difficult to countenance.

The resettling of the Jewish people has been ongoing since the late 1800's but it was really only at the end of WWII that the focus was intensified. Jewish refugees & survivors of the Holocaust needed a focal point & a place to define as their own, it was he British who controlled Palestine & they then divided & designated the land for the use of the Jewish people, ratified by the UN.

BBC NEWS


Founding of the State of Israel

My point is that there would have been no Jewish exodus from a devastated Europe if the Third Reich had not been responsible for that devastation, and for the murder of 6 million Jews. European Jewery would have been more than happy to stay in countries they had lived in for centuries, and in which they had established themselve, rather than facing the life of an armed pioneer, in a hostile land, surrounded by enemies. With no Third Reich there would, possibly, be a token Jewish settlement in the Middle East. But nothing like the modern State of Israel.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by Eric

My point is that there would have been no Jewish exodus from a devastated Europe if the Third Reich had not been responsible for that devastation

I would still question that assumption Eric, the Jews have been persecuted & ostracised throughout the ages by other nationalities & religions over hundreds of years. And as such have always been moving or settling temporarily but having to constantly be looking over their collective shoulders for the next set of provocations.

Granted Germanys role in the 30's & 40's exacerbated the situation & accelerated the forced exodus/repatriation of the Jewish peoples, at least those who could & did with a great many going to the States. A Jewish Homeland already existed in Palestine at this time going back to about 1917 were some powers were seconded to the Israelis under a British mandate upheld by the UN & had been increasing in population numbers due to other pogroms long before Germanys actions.

Furthermore the New State of Israel using the 1950 law of return actively encouraged Jews from all over the word to return/settle in their own homeland. So even after wars end & the defeat of National socialism, the Holocaust many Jews were returning to Israel to avoid a new wave of persecution brought about by the Soviets rule throughout Eastern Europe & Russia itself.

And that is why we have the modern day state of Israel, as it is & where it is today. The Germans can be blamed for a lot of things, but modern day Israel is a conglomerate of circumstances & conditions.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

I would still question that assumption Eric, the Jews have been persecuted & ostracised throughout the ages by other nationalities & religions over hundreds of years. And as such have always been moving or settling temporarily but having to constantly be looking over their collective shoulders for the next set of provocations.

Granted Germanys role in the 30's & 40's exacerbated the situation & accelerated the forced exodus/repatriation of the Jewish peoples, at least those who could & did with a great many going to the States. A Jewish Homeland already existed in Palestine at this time going back to about 1917 were some powers were seconded to the Israelis under a British mandate upheld by the UN & had been increasing in population numbers due to other pogroms long before Germanys actions.

Furthermore the New State of Israel using the 1950 law of return actively encouraged Jews from all over the word to return/settle in their own homeland. So even after wars end & the defeat of National socialism, the Holocaust many Jews were returning to Israel to avoid a new wave of persecution brought about by the Soviets rule throughout Eastern Europe & Russia itself.

And that is why we have the modern day state of Israel, as it is & where it is today. The Germans can be blamed for a lot of things, but modern day Israel is a conglomerate of circumstances & conditions.

We are all aware ... those of us who think, anyway ... of the history of anti-semitism in Europe. And it is not surprising that Zionism became popular among many Jews. But Zionists always faced the problem of trying to attract Jews to migrate to a Jewish homeland in Israel. U.S. jews in particular, and those in the more enlightened parts of Europe ... Weimar Republic comes to mind ... were quite happy to donate large sums of cash, but had no interest in moving. Chaim Weizmann, whose development of a process to produce acetone through bacterial fermentation was of immense value to the allied war effort, and Lord Balfour, along with Churchill, who was always a friend to the Jews, engineered the Balfour Declaration. However, it was not until the early 40s that the idea of a Jewish state in Israel took off. And it should not be too difficult to figure out why this was so. The timing was not accidental. Everything that happened in the Middle East after 1948 can be traced to the effects of German militarism ... kriegslustig. If there had been no holocaust, the State of Israel, as it exists today, would not have developed.

In the twentieth century, Germany started (and lost) two world wars. We are still suffering the effects of the major dislocations that arose from those conflicts. The modern geo-political map, and the American military-industrial complex, would not exist as they do today had it not been for the Third Reich. The German aim was to control Europe. And it looks as if that control is now within their grasp.

[DaveinGermany]

We could bat this back & forward indefinitely, I'll agree that the German involvement accelerated the situation, but I can't agree that it's the only reason that Israel is what it is today. There are so many other contributing factors to consider, both pre war & post war ancient history & modern history that quantify the harassment, persecution & tribulations of the Jewish people (without even going back over religious bigotry & hatred) thereby making them what they are today.

But I'll concur with your last two sentences completely.

[Barrie Yates]

We British were instrumental in the formation of a Jewish State in Palestine by the 1917 Balfour Declaration which declared that the British favored a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
The Saudis, and no doubt, some, if not all other Arab Nations still criticise our part in the creation of Israel