Execution in Iraq

[Busman747]

Originally Posted by Ifty

Let me ask YOU Busman

If people believe ONE THING and think other people of same religion different group are wrong what makes you think they are going to listen to THE PEOPLE THEY THINK HAVE GOT IT WRONG?????

I won't pretend to understand the Moslem religion but one thing I do know is that its believers fervently listen to their leaders as demonstrated by the meeting last Sunday in Blackburn. (Personally, I wouldn't even cross the road to hear what my vicar has to say but I appreciate the dedication of others)
The vast majority of Muslims in this country would do all that is asked of them so why is it not more so in Eastern Europe?

Recently, two representatives travelled from England to help the plight of Ken Bigely. In a bid to secure his release, they went straight to their religious leaders to ask for help in contacting the abductors........

[Bazf]

Most of the people involved with the kidnappings are Arab nationals from different countries and with the mind set of giving impossible demands knowing they wont be carried out, it is a way of generating money from the rich Arab countries that have been investing in terrorism for years in Plastine. Stop the money from Saudi and the Emirates and you will start to see a reduction in the amount of Arabs in the country therefore a reduction in Kidnapping.


Whilst on the subject of how religion helps fanatics have we forgotten how the priests sheltered the IRA and made it hard for the troops to catch those involved plus taking a cut for the "church".

[Acrylic-bob]

Rather interesting article here. It's a bit of a long read, but worth the trouble, I think. It has a lot to say re the origins of the war on terror and the war in Iraq.

http://lawandpolitics.blogspot.com/2...05119098723224

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Bazf

Whilst on the subject of how religion helps fanatics have we forgotten how the priests sheltered the IRA and made it hard for the troops to catch those involved plus taking a cut for the "church".

Apologies for a bit of a thread wander here. I realise there were/are probably priests who sympathise(d) with the IRA cause but there is also the case of moral dilemma. If an IRA member confessed to a priest surely the priest would be bound by the confidentiality of the confessional? I've known this dilemma arise in other cases where people have broken the law and confessed to their priest. The confession is meant to be between man (woman) and God with the priest merely acting as a go-between isn't it?

[Ifty]

Originally Posted by Busman747

I won't pretend to understand the Moslem religion but one thing I do know is that its believers fervently listen to their leaders as demonstrated by the meeting last Sunday in Blackburn. (Personally, I wouldn't even cross the road to hear what my vicar has to say but I appreciate the dedication of others)
The vast majority of Muslims in this country would do all that is asked of them so why is it not more so in Eastern Europe?

You make mistake here thinking Islam is all one. This is not so.

You told me something of Christian Church of England which makes its own war on another church and sahying lies which you say are not what you experience of it.

See Islam this way. People in Blackburn go to mosq and listen. People think this is week will not listen to those they believe are week and wrong. They are not the ones who will listen to this meeting.

Let me tell you what Quran says.
Say: 'O unbelievers,
I serve not what you serve
and you are not serving what I serve,
nor am I serving what you have served,
neither are you serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion.'

This is what Allah said to Prophet Muhammad.

This does not say kill who do not have our religion. It says judgement belongs to God the all-High the all-Great.

Christian, Moslem, Jew all believe Moses a prophet. Moses is your name but same person. God gave to prophet Moses commandments one saying DO NOT KILL. But Jew, Christian and Moslem kills. Leaders who beleive in peace will speak peace but if peiople follow another leader they dont listen to the one who speaks peace.

[Darby]

Ifty,

It's not just what is said...it's what is done! And, I do not doubt your sincerity...But:-

Would you support and protect a muslim who advocated violence and death to the infidels, or would you support and protect the infidel against such muslims?

Or would you turn away and let them get on with it?

[Acrylic-bob]

There are several things that disturb me about all this religious clap-trap. If the Deity is as we are expected to believe, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. I find it monstrously arrogant that anyone could dare to stand up and say that they knew what the deity intended, or that they are “doing God’s work”. There seem to be an apalling number of folk prepared to force on us their own narrow interpretation of scripture.

If the Deity is the author of scripture, and cares so much about the reality it created. Then why are there no updates to scripture to take account of the changes in human society over the last couple of thousand years? Why must we rely on laws, strictures and commandments that were formulated when men still believed that the earth was flat and that if you sailed too close to the edge you might fall off?

The old testament, which supposedly unites Jew, Christian and Muslim as “the people of the book”, permits the most appalling abuses as well as forbidding the most ridiculous of things, look at the book of Leviticus. How can any sane rational person living in the 21st century believe that this nonsense is still pertinent to the way that the world is constituted now? I can accept that the Ten Commandments handed down to Moses form a reasonable set of ethics by which, even today, a person might order his or her life. But I have real difficulty with the idea that the biological necessity of menstruation invalidates half the population, and renders any man who touches a menstruating woman ritually unclean. The further you think that stricture through, the more ridiculous it becomes.

We live in a secular, pluralist society, that is tolerant of belief and unbelief, which is why we permit the practise of different faiths in what is, historically and nominally, a Christian country. Were we as restrictive as the Old Testament demands, then we would live in a country roughly analogous to Afghanistan under the Taliban. That we do not live under such a regime is due to the free flow of ideas and influences from outside the country. It is due to our preparedness to question what we believe and why we believe it. And it is due to our refusal to be slavishly bound to outdated, outmoded and restrictive prescriptions on the use and meaning of life.

While I accept that belief in any deity is, and must always be, available to all, I do not, or will not accept that the restrictions imposed by that belief should be applied to all. The limitations imposed by belief are self-imposed limitations, and it is unreasonable and arrogant to expect that society should afford the believer a status above that accorded to any other citizen.

Until Islam and its adherents accept this fact of life there will always be strife between it and the rest of the world.

It is all very well for people to start quoting scripture in support of the manifestly insupportable. Anyone can do that. Scripture, like statistics, can be manipulated to suit the occasion. What is more difficult and requires moral courage is to speak first from the heart, ally that speech with the intellect and then stand by your words.

[Darby]

Outstanding, and very well put A-Bob....

Logic and common sense!

[Busman747]

[QUOTE=Ifty]You told me something of Christian Church of England which makes its own war on another church and sahying lies which you say are not what you experience of it.[QUOTE]

At this moment in time Ifty, the one "great" war in the world is between the Islamic Zealots and the rest of the world.

There have been many religious wars in the history of mankind but most religions now conduct themselves in a way more fitting of the 21st century. The religions are "fighting" in a political sense to get "bums on seats" in their own particular church! but not with bullets or bombs.

It is true that the IRA fought a bloody battle with the Brits just a few years ago, but they did not have the full support of their countries parliament, and they had a specific objective IE: To bring back Northern Ireland to Eire.

I view these Islamic thugs in the same light, in that they do not speak for their country or religion, but the difference between them and the likes of the IRA is that they have provoked the entire world, western and neighbouring Arabic countries by outrageous actions that defy words.

I am sure that as a pure Muslim, you must agree that these people must be stopped. They want the entire world not only to be Muslim, but to incite believers to kill without mercy any "infidels" they can find.

I am not Muslim, but can contently live in a mainly Muslim area (I probably do ) I do not wake up in the morning thinking that I must kill a Moslim to make my day complete, In fact, the last thing on my mind, when I greet someone on the street is "Oh god, What religion is he or she!) I think most people feel the same way as I!

Accrington is in my opinion, one of the most intergrated towns in the U.K. and I am proud of becoming part of that culture. I am angry whenever I hear about the attrocities done in the name of Allah, but don't take it personally, my anger is aimed at those who use your religion as an excuse to torture innocent people to satisfy their blood lust.

I accept and believe that most Moslems are people that just want to get on with their lives, We only have a few years each on this planet and when death comes, all will be revealed (or not!)

[Ifty]

You talk about IRA and this was Christian fighting Christian. What I'm trying to show you. All Christian do not agree with each other and can fight. Ok you tell me this is political not Christian. THIS IS WHAT I MEAN,

I'm not talking IRA about if govermenmt there supports or not. This is a different subject but I think you are wrong in it also from what I know. I could be wrong.

I do not wake up in the morning thinking I must kill Christians or make them Moslem. I go to chiop shop whichj is Chineese and I dont say to mysself is he Christain or Mslem. I just buy chips. Its not about that.

You all keep saying Islam must do something about this. Moslem of Britain must do something. Take a stand against it.

Ok so you understand IRA situation you think. So think about it like this. IRA killing peoiple are saying this is Roman Catholic way. Does that mean ALL ROMAN CATHOLIC in England are responsible? Does that mean IRA will listen to Roman Catholic in Britain saying dont do this? EVEN THE SAME! EVEN ROMAN CATHOLIC they will not because they are Ireland fighters. Yes?

Ok so you say Moselm of Britain must do something about extreemist in Iraq. I TRY TO TELL YOU. These are NOT THE SAME. You tell of peolpel in Blackburn who listen to their leader. YES YES YES. They listen to THEIR leader but he is not leader of Moslem executioner in Iraq. THEY are not going to listen to some people they do not believe is right.

You have Church of England. Is vicar of St. Peters going to listen to Roman Catholic pope? If St Peters is doing something people in Italy say to pope you must make them stop. How is he going to do it? St Peters vicar does not believe Pope is right Christianity so HE WILL NOT LISTEN. He has his own leader. Bishop of Canterbury. Do you not understand?

These people say Moslem who will not fight is wrong. Moslem who will not fight say executing Moslem is wrong. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

I cannot change these people. Its not about fighting Americans. This is not why they do this. Why do they do this? I tell you why they do this. They do this to get more people to join! You don't believe me? IT WORKS! Young men see and think this is a glory thing and they go to join. Its true I tell you. They leave normal life and they go. You think they dont go from here? You think by then they are going to listen to leaders they have left? NO NO NO.

Dont ask me to solbve it. I cant.

[Darby]

Ifty, You are obviously a man of conscience, and feel very strongly about the issues. Thank you, at least you are addressing the topic, and trying to apply your logic to it.

I firmly believe (although I haven't seen it with my own eyes), that you are correct when you say that those who believe and are peacefull cannot influence those who want to kill. You are probably closer to the realities of Islamic code and attitudes than most of us.

But, if we all say that we cannot change those who would go from their families and friends to the middle east to fight and kill the infidels, then we have failed in our beliefs. We should never say that we cannot change people. It happens all the time.....just as those who come from good homes and apply their religion faithfully, would never go to kill infidels, just because they see it on TV, and hear about it daily...........but they do!

This current upsurge in religion, especially islamic, is (I believe) caused by a dissatisfaction with western values and life. But nobody made anybody accept the western values and life styles. I personally, don't like the current trends in our society either. But I an civilised enough to know that it can be changed without recourse to violence or political activity.

Those of us who are old enough know that if we change our children, and they change their children....the we can set the example that can change other children... ad infinitum. Unfortunately the press and media make the battle even more difficult by pedling tripe at every opportunity...but that's another story. My sons and my grandchildren have an honest and open viewpoint, but one thing they learnt for sure is: "the difference between WRONG and RIGHT"

[WillowTheWhisp]

I hope that I can bring up my children to live as I would want them to, but there are so many outside influences these days. As you say the press and media make the battle very difficult. I have friends who have done their best to bring their children up with the values they would like them to have throughout life but sadly that doesn't stop one or two of them "going off the rails". I find myself struggling. Even at school they are influenced by the people they come into contact with - even the teachers in some cases.

[Acrylic-bob]

It is easy to make sweeping generalisations about people and events, easy, but wrong. The current discussions concerning the IRA are a case in point. The Irish situation has its roots in history and is more about the conquest and subjugation of Ireland by England than it is about religion. There are similar simmering resentments in Scotland and Wales and also to a lesser extent in Cornwall and Brittany. The Basque region of Spain is another example.

There is a wealth of evidence to support the idea that this is a common trait in peoples of the P1, P2 and P3 Celtic groups. It makes little difference what the current issue of contention is. They would argue about what day it was if there was nothing more convenient to hand and still come out of the argument feeling cheated at having been proved either wrong or right. Moreover, they will still be arguing on Judgement Day and I have no doubt that they will all feel equally as hard done by then too.

Occasionally the arguments become heated and get out of hand. In the past it was limited to a bit of a punch up and stealing cattle. Irish and Welsh poetry of the dark ages is full of that sort of thing. Here, in the north of England, we are familiar with Scottish border raiders, who came south to steal a few cows and cause a bit of an upset.

The ready supply of armaments in the twentieth century has added a more deadly edge to the tenor of these arguments and has caused horrific injury and untold misery. But the arguments continue, going round and round in pointless circles.

To say that the conflict is primarily a clash of religions misses the point entirely. To use the current conflict in Ireland as an analogy, when considering the actions of Islamic extremists is a mistake.



Before any of you leap to the defence of the old country, please bear in mind that I have Irish and Breton antecedents, and thus I know whereof I speak – Dear God, do I know!

[WillowTheWhisp]

I also have Irish roots and have opinions on the IRA which I won't go into here beyond saying that anything which calls itself the IRA these days is far removed from what that organisation originally was.

It's not so much about the subjugation of Ireland by England as the retention of the six northern counties when partition took place. The "Irish question" as it used to be known is a very complex one and isn't helped by people constantly reliving the past. We live in the present and the only place we can go from here is the future.

[Acrylic-bob]

Fair points Willow, but isn't it also true that to know where you are and where you are going you must also know where you have been?