Face covering

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

People should in principle have the right to wear whatever they want and to express their religious beliefs. We live in an age of rights and freedoms enshrined in law. As long as it's a genuine expression of belief and not something imposed by social or familial pressures.

The niqab has nothing to do with religion...it is all about male domination of women.
Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it tell women that they must cover their faces.
It is a throwback to Persian aristocracy...it is a tribal custom, but many muslim men have been brainwashed to equate it with the muslim religion....and pass this belief on to their women and children. The women do it out of deference to their husbands and fathers - but it is the men who require it to be done...not the religion.

You can see far more muslim women in Blackburn wearing this garment than ever you will see in a Turkish city.

It is intimidatory, anti-social and when it comes to the courts of law and schools it should be banned.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by accyman

as i said earlier the burka,veil,letterbox etc has absolutely nothing to do with religous beleif its merely a tool of oppression and control.

personally id do away with right to religous beleif as well and tear down every damn church and mosque that couldnt be converted into a pub.Im sick to the back teeth of how much money,time and effort is wasted pandering to morons that think theres a magic fella in the sky.

god or allah want a church or mosque then let god or allah magically errect one from dust.Supposed to have made woman from a rib so surely buiding his own damn church isnt outside hsi skill set.Besides he created NVQ's he could be a builder in 3 months if his mojo is a bit limp but then again he created the polish so he may loose to a lower quote with better workmanship

mind you we dont really have religous belief in the UK there was enough signatures on the last census to declare jedi a recognised faith but it didnt get its status.6 dvd box set is way more credible than 1 poxy ill thought out book from a long time ago

You need no special building to exercise any religious belief...you can pray anywhere - if you want to.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

People should in principle have the right to wear whatever they want and to express their religious beliefs. We live in an age of rights and freedoms enshrined in law. As long as it's a genuine expression of belief and not something imposed by social or familial pressures.

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The niqab has nothing to do with religion...it is all about male domination of women.
Nowhere in the Qu'ran does it tell women that they must cover their faces.

It is intimidatory, anti-social and when it comes to the courts of law and schools it should be banned.

You need to reread my post Mrs P last sentence please.

And yes when the wearing of a veil impinges on the functioning of justice or education it can't be right that individual devotion takes priority.

Now reread my first and second sentences please.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I do NOT need to read your post again...as I understood it the first time.

In fact if you read my post you can clearly see it is undelining some of what you said...however, I do not believe people have a right to wear something which is anti-social and intimidatory.
Much of our perception of people is gained from facial expression(which is why the internet is such a bad way to get across certain points and nuances)....and women who say they choose to wear such a garment are denying us the opportubity to see facial expressions...and determine what they are really thinking or feeling....It also makes it impossible for those who are deaf to determine what is being said...and you do not always know when you will encounter a deaf person in your daily activities.

In this country christians are denied the opportunity to show any outward expression of their faith......I remember a man being sacked from his job for having a palm cross in his van...yet today I go into the GPO and see above the counter, something written in arabic(roughly translated it said 'God is great,...or maybe that should read Allah)....and this is permitted...so the thing about religious beliefs seems to me to be all one way.
We do not need to see a woman clothed from head to foot(in a niqab too) to know she is muslim....the rest of her form of dress already tells us that.

[accyman]

Originally Posted by Aussie Irene

Accyman, after all that ranting and raving, according to Accy Web, i see you are a God member

yes and although i would appreciate a weekly collection to help out with the bills and repairs etc i dont insist women cover their faces although it has been tempting to require the ugly ones do iv resisted temptation thus far

Amen

[DtheP47]

The vast majority of the 1.4 million Muslim women in Britain do not even wear the face veil, as it is not considered a religious obligation. The tiny minority that do are probably happy to remove the veil when required.

It is unfortunate that sometimes the odd Muslim woman is unreasonable and refuses to remove it. Such attitudes are contributing towards portraying their own faith negatively - Islam is not rigid and is flexible.

Women being unreasonable... nothing new there then

[cashman]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

Islam is not rigid and is flexible.

Aye its a pity quite a few of em don't see it that way.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by cashman

Aye its a pity quite a few of em don't see it that way.

Many find the practice disturbing and regard it as backward, but that's no justification for banning it Ol.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

Many find the practice disturbing and regard it as backward, but that's no justification for banning it Ol.

It aint backward, its the knobs that slaughter in the name of it that are, if they want to carry on like that,then sod off to where its acceptable. I would ban it in certain instances no question at all.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by cashman

It aint backward, its the knobs that slaughter in the name of it that are, if they want to carry on like that,then sod off to where its acceptable. I would ban it in certain instances no question at all.

A thinly veiled reply if ever I saw one Mr C

[Margaret Pilkington]

Well, I don't know what how many muslim women there are in the UK...or for that matter what percentage of them wear the niqab...all I can say (from personal observation) is that the numbers who cover their face seem to be increasing.
You cannot walk through any of the local towns without encountering more and more of these women.

If I went to a muslim country - let's say Saudi, for sake of argument.......I would be required to cover up and dress modestly......and I have no qulams about respecting the culture of the country.......but if you wish to come and stay in this country, then you should be prepared to accept the ways of this country.
For far too long we have pussy-footed around the sensitivities of ethnic cultures, at the expense of our own.

I do not agree with women covering their faces......and driving whilst wearing a niqab should be illegal.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

I do not agree with women covering their faces......and driving whilst wearing a niqab should be illegal.

Did you never go to a wedding where the bride wore a veil Margaret???

[Margaret Pilkington]

Now you are just being pedantic(and more than a little silly)...and it does not serve your argument at all.

Of course I have been to a wedding where the bride wore a veil...but it is a thin diaphanous thing that leaves little to be wondered about...it is nothing at all like the thick black material which makes the niqab.......and some of these muslim veils even cover the eyes with a sort of thick net material.....nothing at all like a bridal veil.

Once a bride is married....she casts off the veil, she doesn't go about the rest of her life wearing it...and if you look at weddings..they are getting fewer, and brides are less disposed to wear a veil.

[DtheP47]

A cut and paste Margaret:
The veiling of the bride has origins in the idea that she's vulnerable to enchantment, so she must be hidden from evil spirits. The Romans veiled brides in flame-colored veils to actually scare off those spirits.

Perhaps the most evil of spirits, in an arranged marriage, is the threat that the groom, who is perhaps seeing the bride for the first time, won't like what he sees. The veil saves everyone some embarrassment in the short term.

Also, in many religions, the veil is a sign of humility and respect before God during a religious ceremony.

The Victorians turned that reverence into a status symbol. During Victorian times, when archaic customs were formally incorporated into proper weddings, the weight, length and quality of the veil was a sign of the bride's status. Royal brides had the longest veils and the longest trains.

In modern times, generally we have some assurance that the groom has seen his bride and won't be disappointed, and that the only evil spirits will be the ones behind the bar at the reception.

That's how it's evolved into a diaphanous bit of kit.

[Margaret Pilkington]

well, I wasn't around in either Roman or Victorian times, but whatever...it still doesn't make it right for a modern world to accept that the anonymising of women is something that we should accept as normal....and even embrace.

It should all begin with the education of muslim young men.....they are supposed to be well versed in the teachings of the Qu'ran.

I am sure that I was once told by a muslim colleague, that women attending the mosque were not permitted to retain their niqab...... if I have got this wrong there will be someone who will pop up and tell me.