forget the terrorists, this is worse - much worse!

[Acrylic-bob]

I can accept mistaken identity right up until the moment when the young chap was challenged on the train and the officer sitting next to him pinned his arms to his side. It would have been a relatively simple matter then to take him off the train and find out who he was. But to shoot an already restrained suspect eleven times from extreme close range - and miss three times - does not strike me as a reasoned and measured response. One shot to the head from close range is enough to kill or severely disable anyone. Eleven shots speaks more of unreasoning and murderous frenzy.

Think about it: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven shots! To stop one man, not two feet away?

Much has been made of the sense of heightened tension in the days following the bombings as a means of explaining or excusing this death. But surely Police Officers are trained to excercise control of their emotions, particularly so in the case of officers who are given access to firearms, or are our streets now patrolled by trigger-happy adrenalin junkies who believe that they are in some way above the law they are employed to uphold?

To shoot or not to shoot is a terrible decision to have to make and I do not envy anyone who is called upon to make it. But sadly, it is true that there are circumstances where such decisions are required. But these decisions are not made in a vacuum. The men charged with handling firearms are, supposedly, highly trained to cooly assess any given situation; not to indulge in the thrill of the chase and the consequent catharsis of the "Kill". In such highly charged situations there are rules that must be followed; rules put in place precisely to prevent the loss of innocent life. Shoot-to-kill should be an available option, but an option of last resort. Asking questions later puts each and every one of us on that tube train and places us all at equal risk from the force that is set up to protect us. To my mind, this is not an ideal recipe for a safe and civil society.

Doug and Tealeaf are quite right to point out that leaked information handed to the press must always be regarded with a degree of scepticism and must be weighed against what is already known. And they are also right to insist that we suspend judgement until all the facts are known and the report of the inquiry into the unfortunate young man's death is published.

But how many inquiries have we seen which were conducted, not to reveal the truth but, to hide it beneath a welter of legal argument and obfuscation?

[cashman]

always agreed these reports should be treated with a degree of sceptism, they did seem to be showing documentation though, and also howmany treated the offical police response after the event with skeptisism?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

....to shoot an already restrained suspect eleven times from extreme close range - and miss three times ...

I think they should be investigating how someone missed 3 times at "extreme close range" on a crowded train. Where did the 3 missing rounds end up I wonder and how close to hitting someone else.

[Doug]

Each round will have to be accounted for irrespective of the main event. You might recall the events of March 1988 when members of security force team removed the threat of IRA bombers on Gibraltar. Three unarmed members of an IRA Cell where shot dead at close quarters in public. The out cry across the world about British Shoot to kill Policy sent shook waves throughout the establishment……..Members of the security force team were threatened with prosecution, the fact that large amounts of explosives had been placed by the IRA cell and that there were fears of a radio or remote trigger being carried by them did not in many eyes constitute a reason to execute the terrorist in the manner in which they died. We are unfortunately back to the “what If” scenario.

[staggeringman]

A-B get your rucksack on and have a trip to london?its easy us lard arses sat here doing jack ****. but when it comes to the crunch are boys are in the front line doing what they can?

[staggeringman]

Originally Posted by Neil

I think they should be investigating how someone missed 3 times at "extreme close range" on a crowded train. Where did the 3 missing rounds end up I wonder and how close to hitting someone else.

total waste of material he needs glassess, what are the tax payers paying for?shoot the lot.

[Acrylic-bob]

Originally Posted by staggeringman

A-B get your rucksack on and have a trip to london?its easy us lard arses sat here doing jack ****. but when it comes to the crunch are boys are in the front line doing what they can?

I agree, comment is easy. But I wonder if they would still be "our Boys" if the victim was related?

Shoot-to-Kill, as a policy of defense, is all very well but those responsible for implementing it have a duty to get it right first time and every time! The idea that SO19, which costs the country millions in in training and resources, are just bumbling along "doing what they can" in the vague hope that they might make the right call is horrifying.

It gets worse when those responsible try to lie, decieve, delay and cover-up what they have done. One might expect such behaviour in a Banana Republic, but not in England, surely? Or am I deluding myself?

I lived in London for six years during the height of the IRA boming campaign, I do have some idea of what the situation is like.

[park381]

Who decided to shoot, the guys with the guns or someone else. Were these armed officers not under "gold command", being directed every step of the way, by a voice in their ears.

[garinda]

I'm glad at least A-b regrets some of our more bullish comments in regard to the original thread on this shooting, which with hindsight seems quite sick.

From a purely selfish point of view, do the more 'gung ho' members wish the police hadn't made a mistake, partly because of the vast amount of money these enquiries are going to cost us?

Nice to know from Tealeaf that the armed police are travelling on the tubes to check for 'illegals'. Do make sure you have your ticket before travelling, as sometimes if the machines are down at a station they still let you pay at your destination.

[Tealeaf]

Hey Garinda...let me know next time you're in London and what your travel plans are...I have a few friends with the Met & I'm sure a nice little surprise can be arranged for you on the Underground.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Hey Garinda...let me know next time you're in London and what your travel plans are...I have a few friends with the Met & I'm sure a nice little surprise can be arranged for you on the Underground.

I always have a valid ticket in my little mit, so your friends would be wrong to shoot me.

I bet my friends in MI5 are bigger than your friends, so nah nah nah na!

[cashman]

i also can accept mistaken identity, what i find difficult to accept is the officers on the front line getting stick because the HEAD of the met did not come clean immediatly they knew a mistake had been made,surely if he had told the facts of the error tragic though it was it would be painful but far more acceptable.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cashman

i also can accept mistaken identity, what i find difficult to accept is the officers on the front line getting stick because the HEAD of the met did not come clean immediatly they knew a mistake had been made,surely if he had told the facts of the error tragic though it was it would be painful but far more acceptable.

and also didn't try to delay the enquiry. Smells rotten..........

[SPUGGIE J]

Rumour has it the CPS is avin a swatch at this, but answer will be no case to answer.

[janet]

Seems to me that the police are just trying to cover up there mistakes. if it was us making them do you think we would get away with it. I think not. Neither should the police.