Full Council Meeting - 14th September

[g jones]

Originally Posted by JCB

For quite a while now I have doubted the need for party politics in local government .
I am pleased we have 4 Independents , and I hope they remain independent and increase in number .

It's true about the mirror image , which is a result of the party political system .

In its turn the mirror image is a mirror image of Westminster . Both Labour and Conservative Prime Ministers are more and more presidential.

I miss the likes of George Brown , Enoch Powell , Aneurin Bevan , and Michael Heseltine . I might not have agreed with them , but they stood out as their own men , and brought colour to politics .

I feel this point needs challenging. Independents can and do take both sides in an unprincipled way. The electorate has little idea what they stand for and in representative democracy get away with it.

Their expression of defiance and right to veto on any issue presents a serious risk that nothing will ever get decided or done. Independents are not how you would run a business or a sports team and expect progress without some collegiate responsibility.

In reality they are a protest vote and where they hold a balence of power there is to found not free expression but discord and political ransoms.

The Party system seems archaic but call it what you will, names don't matter, people have to work together and put aside petty point scoring. The Party system does that effectively and allows provides a discipline for policy and progress.

[MargaretR]

The way to overcome the destructive effects of a narcissist is to begin to understand how his mind works.

How to manage a narcissist.
extracts -

It seems that it is almost inevitable these days that there will be some personality disorders in a senior management team.Ref Unfortunately, in the case of narcissism there is little that the leader or other senior management team members can do for the narcissist as the likelihood of change in his personality disorder is slim. As Ronningstam and Gunderson put it, "For clinicians, the assiduous and sustained resistance to change common in patients with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) has been especially noticeable and trying."

So if denial and distortion fail, the next step for the narcissist is projection. Perhaps the only solution for an organisation faced with a destructive narcissist is to force him into a narcissistic breakdown. As Kernberg noted, narcissistic patients persistently deny they have any problems or limitations and consequently lack any motivation for treatment, until faced with a major failure (narcissistic breakdown)

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by g jones

The Party system seems archaic but call it what you will, names don't matter, people have to work together and put aside petty point scoring. The Party system does that effectively and allows provides a discipline for policy and progress.

Most times it is the party system itself which causes petty point scoring. There are some people who will despise someone purely because of the party they're in.

Also, the Party system ensures that some people who are really not fit to be elected get elected, purely because they are in a Tory or Labour area. There are some excellent councillors from both parties but equally there are some who are not up to the job but they got elected on the colour of their rosette.

I agree on the discipline for policy but I disagree that it is a mechanism for progress. Quite often it can hold things back.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Gayle

I agree on the discipline for policy but I disagree that it is a mechanism for progress. Quite often it can hold things back.

I'd agree that things are currently being held back but in Hyndburn we have a controlling group who don't have overall control and so rather than allow democracy to take her own majestic course we have a ringleader who is himself jumping through hoops to get his own way. All energy is being wasted on consolidating his own position rather than improving the borough, the Market Hall being a case in point.

Britcliffe has to go sooner rather than later for there to be any real progress within Hyndburn. The party system will still be there and still be a lively animal but without a megalomaniac in charge there might be a chance to move forwards.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by MargaretR

So if denial and distortion fail, the next step for the narcissist is projection. Perhaps the only solution for an organisation faced with a destructive narcissist is to force him into a narcissistic breakdown. As Kernberg noted, narcissistic patients persistently deny they have any problems or limitations and consequently lack any motivation for treatment, until faced with a major failure (narcissistic breakdown)

Precisely Margaret, but Britcliffe has been watching the same YouTube clips as you and is well ahead of the game. Avoiding failure is the reason behind the complete cancellation of September's full council.

Of course, anyone who still believes that this is all just a mark of respect for Cllr Griffiths is welcome to come along to the Cabinet meeting on Thursday (11am at Scaitcliffe House) and see the Leader in action, democratically hearing out all points raised in a genuine effort to improve the fine borough of Hyndburn.

Where's my medication?

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by JCB

For quite a while now I have doubted the need for party politics in local government .
I am pleased we have 4 Independents , and I hope they remain independent and increase in number .

It's true about the mirror image , which is a result of the party political system .

In its turn the mirror image is a mirror image of Westminster . Both Labour and Conservative Prime Ministers are more and more presidential.

I miss the likes of George Brown , Enoch Powell , Aneurin Bevan , and Michael Heseltine . I might not hav JCBe agreed with them , but they stood out as their own men , and brought colour to politics .

Well JCB (welcome back by the way) I actually agree with you, I have always said that it would be better if politics was taken out of local government, but alas it will never happen. I have maintain that all councillors do a worthwhile job irrespective of colour, why else would they be there, all this crap you here, from all parties, we're right and your wrong is toss and they all know it, they both get peeved when the other lot come up with something first before they thought of it

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by g jones

I feel this point needs challenging. Independents can and do take both sides in an unprincipled way. The electorate has little idea what they stand for and in representative democracy get away with it.

Their expression of defiance and right to veto on any issue presents a serious risk that nothing will ever get decided or done. Independents are not how you would run a business or a sports team and expect progress without some collegiate responsibility.

In reality they are a protest vote and where they hold a balence of power there is to found not free expression but discord and political ransoms.

The Party system seems archaic but call it what you will, names don't matter, people have to work together and put aside petty point scoring. The Party system does that effectively and allows provides a discipline for policy and progress.

Oh come on Graham, you were as bad as anybody whilst on the council, you and Britcliffe spent all your time playing one up-man-ship and that's the sad part about it

[JCB]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well JCB (welcome back by the way) I actually agree with you, I have always said that it would be better if politics was taken out of local government, but alas it will never happen. I have maintain that all councillors do a worthwhile job irrespective of colour, why else would they be there, all this crap you here, from all parties, we're right and your wrong is toss and they all know it, they both get peeved when the other lot come up with something first before they thought of it

Thanks for the welcome back , Jaysay .

I'm glad you accept my point . Nationally we do need some form of party organisations to make government effective . But locally , the issues being dealt with don't need strict party adherence . Sensible councillors should be able to get round a table and discuss matters affecting the borough , and arrive at beneficial conclusions . No need for the party political ping-pong games . They are poisonong our democracy .

By the way , I joined 2 Christian Forums , one mainly USA and the other UK . The American Christians on the forum are on the whole nuts . Their bigotry and intolerance of any who take a different Christian stance from their own is mind-blowing . The UK was hardly any better .

Compared with them Accy Web is made up of a choir of angels .

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by JCB

Thanks for the welcome back , Jaysay .

I'm glad you accept my point . Nationally we do need some form of party organisations to make government effective . But locally , the issues being dealt with don't need strict party adherence . Sensible councillors should be able to get round a table and discuss matters affecting the borough , and arrive at beneficial conclusions . No need for the party political ping-pong games . They are poisonong our democracy .

By the way , I joined 2 Christian Forums , one mainly USA and the other UK . The American Christians on the forum are on the whole nuts . Their bigotry and intolerance of any who take a different Christian stance from their own is mind-blowing . The UK was hardly any better .

Compared with them Accy Web is made up of a choir of angels .

Choir of angels JCB, I just had this picture in my mind of Less, Beni and mick sat on a cloud playing the harp and drinking pints of mild

[garinda]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Oh come on Graham, you were as bad as anybody whilst on the council, you and Britcliffe spent all your time playing one up-man-ship and that's the sad part about it

Originally Posted by jaysay

I have maintain that all councillors do a worthwhile job irrespective of colour

Slight contadiction there?

It's not just politicians, it's their faithful followers, who see one party as always beyond reproach, and the opposition as the Devil incarnate.

[Benipete]

Originally Posted by gynn

No offence taken, but I am as irritated as you about the way the Council is run, whilst proclaiming itself to be excellent.

I am merely pointing out that there are protections built in to local government to deal with one individual assuming too much power.

Put the Managing Director on the spot. And if you are still not satisfied, contact the External Auditors. Believe me, it will have an effect!

It appears from this post that there is an avenue that councilors can go down but for reasons that the rest of us can only speculate refuse to do so.

[gynn]

Councillor Moss says he has received an assurance from officers that due process was followed to the letter, in that the Mayor, Leader of the Council and Leader of the Opposition were consulted about the cancellation of the meeting, and that with no agreement reached on rescheduling the meeting for next week, senior officers took the decision to defer everything until the December meeting.

Councillor Moss doesn't indicate whether officers could explain why an alternative date two or three weeks hence could not be arranged, nor does he say whether the Labour Group have accepted the response.

In many ways it raises more questions than it answers. It is certainly a decision that favours one party more than the other, in that it gets the ruling group out of a difficult political situation regarding the Market Leases. The loss of one of their members, on paper, makes it unlikely that they would carry a vote in Council. If a by election is due to be held before the December meeting, it might also be viewed as an opportunity to rectify this shortfall prior to the next meeting.

It would still be interesting to hear the views of the Council's monitoring officer and external auditors, who act independently of the day to day Council business. If they are satisfied that due process has been followed, then so can the Labour group.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by gynn

Councillor Moss says he has received an assurance from officers that due process was followed to the letter, in that the Mayor, Leader of the Council and Leader of the Opposition were consulted about the cancellation of the meeting, and that with no agreement reached on rescheduling the meeting for next week, senior officers took the decision to defer everything until the December meeting.

Councillor Moss doesn't indicate whether officers could explain why an alternative date two or three weeks hence could not be arranged, nor does he say whether the Labour Group have accepted the response.

In many ways it raises more questions than it answers. It is certainly a decision that favours one party more than the other, in that it gets the ruling group out of a difficult political situation regarding the Market Leases. The loss of one of their members, on paper, makes it unlikely that they would carry a vote in Council. If a by election is due to be held before the December meeting, it might also be viewed as an opportunity to rectify this shortfall prior to the next meeting.

It would still be interesting to hear the views of the Council's monitoring officer and external auditors, who act independently of the day to day Council business. If they are satisfied that due process has been followed, then so can the Labour group.

I personally am satisfied with the options presented to us by officials and the Mayor and that due procedure has been followed. The Labour group have no problem with rescheduling full council in the next couple of weeks and would accept pretty much any evening slot.

Cllr Britcliffe has been asked to reschedule full council for September but he apparently will not do so, or at least cannot come to an agreement with the Labour leader. I was not privy to that meeting but Labour is all in favour of a full council meeting this month.

[Ken Moss]

Originally Posted by Benipete

It appears from this post that there is an avenue that councilors can go down but for reasons that the rest of us can only speculate refuse to do so.

It's not so much that we refuse to do so but it would be a very heavy-handed thing to do to the Chief Executive, especially when he does everything by the book. In my opinion he is the best man for that job and long may he stay in it, Hyndburn Borough Council is a more secure animal with him holding the reins.

On this occasion I just wanted clarification of the sequence of events and am satisfied that the civil service procedures have been conducted properly. It seems that the only person who does not want a full council meeting in September is Cllr Britcliffe.

I am willing to be proven wrong and will take it on the chin if an evening meeting is called for sometime within the next 15 days....

[g jones]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Oh come on Graham, you were as bad as anybody whilst on the council, you and Britcliffe spent all your time playing one up-man-ship and that's the sad part about it

Many people played up our clashes suggesting a personal dislike. It's not how I saw it. Sounds like memoirs now but the truth is I want a socialist way of life and I could not achieve that with this Conservative Council or it's current leader. I had too much ambition to ever consider wasting a moment of my time on the life and circumstances of Peter Britcliffe. That would have slowed down/handicapped a progressive, socialist agenda.