Guantanamo Bay America's Shame.

[chav1]

upon reflection i think it should be closed..

and replaced with gas chambers

[Less]

It's not an easy one is it? If however we really did believe in freedom for all we would be against the holding of prisoners of all nations in this camp without trial not just our 'loyal British Subjects', (if ever I get caught doing something illegal abroad I will always state that I am a loyal British subject).

However in the words of The late great Spike Milligan, "Everybody has to be somewhere". and I think the somewhere these people should be is away from the temptation of doing harm to anyone else.

Unfortunately there will be some innocent people caught up amongst the interns they are the only ones I feel sorry for, I just wish the U.S. Justice system could move a little quicker to get those people out of there and the guilty actually sentenced.

UK minister condemns Guantanamo

Above is a recent report of one of our allegedly 'more informed' citizens, he had to go a long way away to state his views though didn't he?

[SPUGGIE J]

The Americans dont seem to know exactly how to deal with these people or wether there are innocents among the guilty. The Britains there could be there because they joined the terrorists or because of wrong place wrong time and only time will tell if innocent or guilty. Our own legal system isnt renowned for getting it right or being as fast as it can be yet we used Internment on the NI terrorists which is no different from what the Americans are doing. They have these people let them deal with it the way they see fit.

To look at it another way some Brits got drunk on a flight to Greece and it looks like they are facing trial on charges that are there for terrorists because they endangered the plane and its passengers because of their behavior in the eyes of the Greeks. Should they be allowed to walk away or should they face trial for what they did? To me there is no difference between these idiots and the ones in Guantanimo they made their bed so they can now lie in it.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

Although I agree with the majority view expressed on here, once again we've ended up with a string of threads, all agreeing with each other. I thought that perhaps Ianto might give us an argument but, as with his Stanley thread, he's bottled out once the going gets tough.

So why don't some of the other members who are against Guantanamo Bay come on here and express their views? I would've thought that Graham and Gayle might have some strong opinions on the subject. And what about Greg Pope? The man who said "I have been a strong critic of the camp. I think it is a disgrace. As part of the war on terror you cannot hold people without trial. It should be closed at once." I'm sure we'd be interested in his response to our views.

:engsmil: Do you know Winnie
you have me well weigh'd up, bottling out of a scrap is my forte, I was the best jacket holder going, well i'm a lover got a godamn fighter ,one has to watch one's reputation.
Just how do the families of these people cope when even the mighty Yanks don't know what to do with their loved ones, just how long will they
keep them locked up

[Mancie]

Have any of the prisoners been put on trial in any sort of court? I don't think so..are they prisoners of war or classed a criminals? every person on this planet should have the right to at least present a case for thier innocence, even the Nazis who murdered millions had a trial. If the U.S. have evidence of terrorist activity then these people should be tried and if found guilty sentenced,were's the problem?

[SPUGGIE J]

Originally Posted by Mancie

Have any of the prisoners been put on trial in any sort of court? I don't think so..are they prisoners of war or classed a criminals? every person on this planet should have the right to at least present a case for thier innocence, even the Nazis who murdered millions had a trial. If the U.S. have evidence of terrorist activity then these people should be tried and if found guilty sentenced,were's the problem?

They could have piles of evidence but all the interference from many sources are making it harder. Like anything else that needs doing the best way is without some clown trying to tell you how it should be done when they aint got a clue what is happening. The Harry Enfield character who's aim in life was to interfere comes to mind though cant remember the name.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J

They could have piles of evidence but all the interference from many sources are making it harder. Like anything else that needs doing the best way is without some clown trying to tell you how it should be done when they aint got a clue what is happening. The Harry Enfield character who's aim in life was to interfere comes to mind though cant remember the name.

:engsmil: Come on spuggie you know full well what my name is Chin Chin.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by SPUGGIE J

The Harry Enfield character ..........

"Only meeeeeeeeee!"

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

"Only meeeeeeeeee!"

Has someone sussed out who this "Maverick" is Send em to Guantanamo Bay

[Billcat]

As an American, I'll admit to being very concerned about the tactics employed by our current government as regards these prisoners. Holding prisoners for years without trial is not the way I wish my country to operate, just I find the use of torture abhorrent. If we engage in such tactics, we become no better than the many despotic regimes around the world. I was raised to think that the USA had higher values. The UK, too!

If these folks are truly dangerous as so many folks are eager to claim, then by all means try them and lock them up.

I'm sure if the Bush administration had the evidence, they would have held trials. Successful trials ending in convictions would have done wonders to restore public confidence in Mr. Bush's polocies. Aslo, it would have done a lot to convince the world that the morality of the internment camp was justifiable. However, the Bush administration has taken every possible alternative and utlilized egregious delaying tactics instead of holding just trials. At the very least, it leads one to wonder whether these prisoners are merely being held on suspicion.

Frankly, I firmly believe in making sure that real terrorists are properly taken care of. However, I believe even more firmly that the USA must uphold the values of our country. Little things, like adherence to the Geneva convention and "innoncent until proven guilty." If we give up these core values because we are frightened, then the terrorists have indeed scored a victory.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Billcat

As an American, I'll admit to being very concerned about the tactics employed by our current government as regards these prisoners. Holding prisoners for years without trial is not the way I wish my country to operate, just I find the use of torture abhorrent. If we engage in such tactics, we become no better than the many despotic regimes around the world. I was raised to think that the USA had higher values. The UK, too!

If these folks are truly dangerous as so many folks are eager to claim, then by all means try them and lock them up.

I'm sure if the Bush administration had the evidence, they would have held trials. Successful trials ending in convictions would have done wonders to restore public confidence in Mr. Bush's polocies. Aslo, it would have done a lot to convince the world that the morality of the internment camp was justifiable. However, the Bush administration has taken every possible alternative and utlilized egregious delaying tactics instead of holding just trials. At the very least, it leads one to wonder whether these prisoners are merely being held on suspicion.

Frankly, I firmly believe in making sure that real terrorists are properly taken care of. However, I believe even more firmly that the USA must uphold the values of our country. Little things, like adherence to the Geneva convention and "innoncent until proven guilty." If we give up these core values because we are frightened, then the terrorists have indeed scored a victory.

:engsmil: You say Sir that these people are dangerous "how do you know" because Dubya Bush tells you, you have a mind, don't sacrifice it on Dubya's Altar.No man woman or child, should
have to suffer incarceration without "TRIAL". :engsmil:

[JohnW]

Actually IantoW, that is not how I interpreted Billcat's reply at all. I think you will find that he will not be "sacrificing his mind on Dubya's Altar," as from posts he makes, I consider his political affiliations lie with the other party.

[Billcat]

Originally Posted by JohnW

Actually IantoW, that is not how I interpreted Billcat's reply at all. I think you will find that he will not be "sacrificing his mind on Dubya's Altar," as from posts he makes, I consider his political affiliations lie with the other party.

Thanks!

Actually, had the author of that altar remark read carefully, I think he might find that I share some of the concerns he initially expressed. Frankly, I wonder if his positions are real or if he is just be trying to provoke controversy.

I try not to scarifice my mind on anyone's altar. As you may have noticed, John, I like to dig for the facts and I also enough of an idealist believe that there are some freedoms and values that we should not be scared into sacrificing for a possible reduction in risk.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Billcat

Thanks!

Actually, had the author of that altar remark read carefully, I think he might find that I share some of the concerns he initially expressed. Frankly, I wonder if his positions are real or if he is just be trying to provoke controversy.

I try not to scarifice my mind on anyone's altar. As you may have noticed, John, I like to dig for the facts and I also enough of an idealist believe that there are some freedoms and values that we should not be scared into sacrificing for a possible reduction in risk.

Your right I did get it badly wrong Billicat I lie at your altar a contrite human being, but for
God's sake don't make me go to 'Oswaldtwistle' my mate Tim O Peg from
Clayton pinched the Gobbins Lamp. See your story (anything goes), and don't take life so serious. If tommorow never comes who will be any wiser
Chin Chin. Merlot (waters edge from California) for ever.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by JohnW

Actually IantoW, that is not how I interpreted Billcat's reply at all. I think you will find that he will not be "sacrificing his mind on Dubya's Altar," as from posts he makes, I consider his political affiliations lie with the other party.

:engsmil: All I seem to be doing these days is
apologising, but when one is wrong one is wrong, honestly I don't thik i'd like to be in them prisoners shoes.
On a lighter note i'm sure we know each other .