Has justice been done?

[mobertol]

Originally Posted by Eric

Maybe it has something to do with stats like these:


As The Right Bemoans Norway's Criminal Justice System, It Is One Of The Safest Countries On Earth | ThinkProgress

Something for the "throw away the key" and the "hang 'em high" crowd to mull over.

Interesting read, Eric.

Helps understand why they were all so totally shocked by what happened and yet respect their justice system in the end. If it works don't knock it...

I note that they can add on extra to the term he's serving 5 yrs at a time if he's deemed to be dangerous -I suspect this will be what will happen in his case.

"Enlightened" was a word used on here to describe the Norwegians - I think "civilised" is also appropriate.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by mobertol

Interesting read, Eric.

Helps understand why they were all so totally shocked by what happened and yet respect their justice system in the end. If it works don't knock it...

I note that they can add on extra to the term he's serving 5 yrs at a time if he's deemed to be dangerous -I suspect this will be what will happen in his case.

"Enlightened" was a word used on here to describe the Norwegians - I think "civilised" is also appropriate.

Whats civilised about some lunatic running round killing 77 people

[Eric]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Whats civilised about some lunatic running round killing 77 people

You seem to be missing the point again ... the question is not about homicidal lunatics, it's about how they are dealt with by criminal justice systems. All "civilized" countries have their lunatic killers; here's one of ours:


Marc Lepine: The Montreal Massacre — The Target — Crime Library on truTV.com

What can't be denied is that those countries which have no death penalty, which treat the incarcerated humanely, and which, in general, have in place government funded health care and education, old age security, welfare, disability pensions, unemployment insurance, workers compensation, etc, and a strong tradition of democratic government all tend to have low incarceration and recidivism rates, and low crime rates. Like it or not, and I know a lot of you don't like it, the punishment for major crimes in Norway (and Canada; and the UK) is a period of incarceration ... that's it; you lose your freedom.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Eric

You seem to be missing the point again ... the question is not about homicidal lunatics, it's about how they are dealt with by criminal justice systems. All "civilized" countries have their lunatic killers; here's one of ours:


Marc Lepine: The Montreal Massacre — The Target — Crime Library trutv.com

What can't be denied is that those countries which have no death penalty, which treat the incarcerated humanely, and which, in general, have in place government funded health care and education, old age security, welfare, disability pensions, unemployment insurance, workers compensation, etc, and a strong tradition of democratic government all tend to have low incarceration and recidivism rates, and low crime rates. Like it or not, and I know a lot of you don't like it, the punishment for major crimes in Norway (and Canada; and the UK) is a period of incarceration ... that's it; you lose your freedom.

I could subscribe to that Eric, if like in the States, Life usually means life, but in good old UK life is around 12 years, just a pity the poor sod that was killed won't be walking in the fresh air on their release day

[Eric]

Originally Posted by susie123

Norway's population is less than that of London spread over a huge area, and its biggest city has fewer than one million people. It is also very prosperous thanks to oil and gas and has universal healthcare and free schooling among other social benefits. When you are there it feels very safe and I could detect little or no sign of an underclass.

Perhaps these are some of the reasons why crime is so low.

Ok ... if you don't like Norway as an example; how about The Netherlands with its dense population (like you guys in the UK; living on top of one another).

And let's look at the "fry'em" capital of the world: the US. Admittedly it has a population of 300 million +; but, it is spread over a huge area. It is prosperous, thanks originally to oil. It now has Obamacare. Free schooling, among other social benefits ... however, when you are there you don't feel safe. I think I'd rather walk thru Damascus at nite than take a nice stroll through downtown Detroit. And yet, many on this forum often look benignly on the US criminal punishment system. They see it as an answer to violent crime. And, at the same time, they ignore the facts: the country with the highest incarceration rate, some of the most dangerous prisons in the civilzed world, and the death penalty in many states still has a crime rate that is through the roof. More than 10,000 people in the states were murdered by hand guns alone last year

[mobertol]

Originally Posted by Eric

You seem to be missing the point again ... the question is not about homicidal lunatics, it's about how they are dealt with by criminal justice systems. All "civilized" countries have their lunatic killers;

What can't be denied is that those countries which have no death penalty, which treat the incarcerated humanely, and which, in general, have in place government funded health care and education, old age security, welfare, disability pensions, unemployment insurance, workers compensation, etc, and a strong tradition of democratic government all tend to have low incarceration and recidivism rates, and low crime rates. Like it or not, and I know a lot of you don't like it, the punishment for major crimes in Norway (and Canada; and the UK) is a period of incarceration ... that's it; you lose your freedom.

Originally Posted by Eric

Ok ... if you don't like Norway as an example; how about The Netherlands with its dense population (like you guys in the UK; living on top of one another).

And let's look at the "fry'em" capital of the world: the US. Admittedly it has a population of 300 million +; but, it is spread over a huge area. It is prosperous, thanks originally to oil. It now has Obamacare. Free schooling, among other social benefits ... however, when you are there you don't feel safe. I think I'd rather walk thru Damascus at nite than take a nice stroll through downtown Detroit. And yet, many on this forum often look benignly on the US criminal punishment system. They see it as an answer to violent crime. And, at the same time, they ignore the facts: the country with the highest incarceration rate, some of the most dangerous prisons in the civilzed world, and the death penalty in many states still has a crime rate that is through the roof. More than 10,000 people in the states were murdered by hand guns alone last year

Very eloquently put , Eric.

It's strange how civilisation and enlightenment go hand in hand with progress and the well-being of the population. Throughout history it has been seen and yet it is not recognised as being ideal because at some point a greedy few manage to spoil things for everyone else.

The majority benefit from sharing the fruits of the country and yet in every major civilisation the world has seen so far, the "few" manage to put the frighteners on and convince the masses that they are in danger from something other than the power crazy themselves.

There will always be some insane and dangerous people around but they are fewer and far between than films and TV series about serial killers would have us believe...the real problem lies elsewhere.