Help me out ... - Page 2

Eric · 15-10-2012, 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

I can agree with that, especially as it comes from someone who's been there, done it and got the T-shirt.

I can agree with that almost 100%. All the NATO combat troops in Afghanistan ... that would be British, American, and, until the end of last year, Canadian ... have the same, or similar, rules of engagement. On the other side you have the Taliban, well-organized, resourceful, and determined, whose rules of engagement go something like this: 1. There are no rules. 2. See rule #1. In a circuamstances such as these shiite is bound to happen. However, I do believe that the majority of The Great British Public will support these men. Of course, many won't. And we all know who those "many" are.

By the way, I see that Malala Yousafzai has been transferred to a hospital in the UK. One eggspurt interviewed on CBC suggested that this is more out of a concern for her personal safety than for her health. Wherever, even in the western world, she is transferred to there is probably no shortage of mosque-ateers more than willing to finish off what the Taliban started.

Mog · 15-10-2012, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

In all probability yes, all of the above & more. But we've signed up to a code of conduct along with the Geneva convention & that is what earns our armed forces the respect & admiration the world over & sets them apart from the creatures they're fighting against.

Do you think the Taliban care about the Geneva Convention. You tell that to the families of the 433 members of our armed forces that have died since we have been in THEIR country. You tell that to the the families of all the civilians that died in 9/11 and Bali and the London bombings or any other atrocity that the Taliban are responsible for. You tell an insurgent that its wrong to strap a bomb to his/her chest and kill innocent men, women and children. You tell an insurgent that it is morally wrong and against the Geneva Convention to lay IED,s. You have to Fight Fire with Fire. and when in Rome do as the Romans do. The rules of engagement say that you must not shoot at any insurgent unless he/she shoots at you first. If that was the case we would have lost a lot more than 433. A soldier is trained to shoot to kill, not shoot to wound. A wounded insurgent could and would kill you. Same T shirt.

Gordon Booth · 15-10-2012, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

In all probability yes, all of the above & more. But we've signed up to a code of conduct along with the Geneva convention & that is what earns our armed forces the respect & admiration the world over & sets them apart from the creatures they're fighting against.

DiG, both your posts are what we should expect from a professional from our Armed Forces- calm, responsible, measured and facing up to the rules you lived by as they are.
You are, of course, quite right but it's hard not to have an emotional response when this sort of things happens. Our troops are in an impossible situation fighting in a war they cannot win in a country that doesn't really want them against an enemy that has no rules. They should never have been sent there.

Wynonie Harris · 15-10-2012, 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

DiG, both your posts are what we should expect from a professional from our Armed Forces- calm, responsible, measured and facing up to the rules you lived by as they are.
You are, of course, quite right but it's hard not to have an emotional response when this sort of things happens. Our troops are in an impossible situation fighting in a war they cannot win in a country that doesn't really want them against an enemy that has no rules. They should never have been sent there.

It's what I'd expect from Dave, as he was a seasoned professional. Nobody knows the full background to this, but if the guy was a captured insurgent, you can't just start routinely killing POWs, even if they come from an inhuman bunch of savages who abide by no rules. For a start, the commander would end up at a war crimes tribunal, like that Serbian bloke whose name I've forgotten. But, yes, you're right, we should never have gone into that place.

DaveinGermany · 15-10-2012, 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mog

Do you think the Taliban care about the Geneva Convention.

I know as well as you do that they don't follow any convention apart from what their warped twisted minds & mad mullahs preach. And that they have even less regard & respect for life & attitudes that don't adhere to theirs.

Our lads are professionals & that is the difference, they wear a uniform to signify who & what they are, British Soldiers, not some trigger happy bunch of mercenaries & executioners.They walk tall because they do what is right despite their inner conflict, turmoil or the risk.

Things happen in combat zones that shouldn't, it's part of the unusual & exceptional circumstances encountered, that is & always will be the case. these incidents can be understood & explained to a point, but anything that happens after the "Heat of the battle" will always be subjected to extreme scrutiny.

Margaret Pilkington · 15-10-2012, 19:08

Slobodan Milosovic...the Serbian bloke.
No-one has been able to bring the conflict in Afghanistan to a conclusion...and lord knows the Russians tried hard.
We should not be there. Let them fight it out amongst themselves.
Our lads are being murdered by fake policeman...or even real police that our lads are trying to train....how can you work alongside someone and then in cold blood gun them down?
Let have the lads and lasses home.

cashman · 15-10-2012, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Slobodan Milosovic...the Serbian bloke.
No-one has been able to bring the conflict in Afghanistan to a conclusion...and lord knows the Russians tried hard.
We should not be there. Let them fight it out amongst themselves.
Our lads are being murdered by fake policeman...or even real police that our lads are trying to train....how can you work alongside someone and then in cold blood gun them down?
Let have the lads and lasses home.

I would imagine the majority of the British Public would agree. Its the politicos that dont.

DaveinGermany · 15-10-2012, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

For a start, the commander would end up at a war crimes tribunal, like that Serbian bloke whose name I've forgotten.

Ratko MladićI think you mean Wynn. Furthermore 2nd LT William Calley & Mai Li come to mind, when you talk about troops turning into judge, jury & executioner & that is another reason why we have military codes of conduct & rules of engagement.

Margaret Pilkington · 15-10-2012, 19:16

Him as well.

Wynonie Harris · 15-10-2012, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

Ratko MladićI think you mean Wynn. Furthermore 2nd LT William Calley & Mai Li come to mind, when you talk about troops turning into judge, jury & executioner & that is another reason why we have military codes of conduct & rules of engagement.

Yeah, that's the feller, Dave. Arrogant looking sod. He ended up at a war crimes tribunal along with the bloke Margaret mentioned. I would've thought that our commanders would suffer the same fate if we just started executing Taliban prisoners at random.

We really shouldn't be in this situation in the first place, though. Anyone who has studied history knows that the British have come to grief on more than one occasion in Afghanistan before. But, those who do not know history, are condemned to repeat it.

Less · 15-10-2012, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Our troops are in an impossible situation fighting in a war they cannot win in a country that doesn't really want them against an enemy that has no rules.

Fully agree, It's time a brave P.M. and Parliament brought them home now.

Anyone know where we can find one?

Oop's sorry bring them home? We might lose face in the World, leave them there, prove how clever we really are.

DaveinGermany · 15-10-2012, 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

We really shouldn't be in this situation in the first place, though. Anyone who has studied history knows that the British have come to grief on more than one occasion in Afghanistan before. But, those who do not know history, are condemned to repeat it.

Couldn't agree more Wynn & not just us, I don't think any countries military who've gone in to Afghanistan have managed to come through without a mauling. The sooner our lads & their allies are out of there the better, sadly though it's much to late for those who won't ever be coming back.

Margaret Pilkington · 15-10-2012, 19:53

Less, we would need someone with a backbone....nope, can't see anyone out there that fits the bill.

egg&chips · 15-10-2012, 20:23

I am in no way defending the actions of the Taliban. Their doctrine and moral code is completely beyond my understanding and I consider them to be evil.
However, I suspect that their opinion of us is similarly low. They believe that US involvement in their country and "holy places" is satanic. They believe that underhand guerrilla tactics are justified because of this, a tactical school wholly recommended to the Arabs by TE Lawrence.
Had the Nazis pulled off operation sealion in WWII, I suspect and would expect British commando units to have waged a dirty war to its fullest extent. The difference being that the nazis would have retaliated by decimating the civilian population in retaliation. We seem to get stuck in this sort of situation a lot eg Northern Ireland, and if we don't "play by the rules" like in Kenya, we get sued for it after a number of years.

egg&chips · 15-10-2012, 20:32

I'd be interested in what Dave and others with more experience in these matters ie any at all would like to happen in an ideal world?