Help me out ...

Eric · 14-10-2012, 18:46

Ok, guys, help me out on this one ... you know, input from someone closer to what's going on.

Marines charged with murder over Afghanistan death | UK news | The Guardian

I know I don't have all the facts, but the story brought to mind an observation made by Captain Willard in "Apocalypse Now" ... Remember when he commented that arresting someone for murder in Viet Nam was kinda like handing out speeding tickets at Indianapolis.

MargaretR · 14-10-2012, 19:34

I am not 'close to the event' but feel the need to comment.

They train men to kill and then complain when they do.

Their victim has been described as 'an insurgent' which is a fancy name for 'enemy'.

The true murderers are the politicians who sent them there.

'Conventions of War' are rules devised by the people who never have to experience front line horror. Those rules are intended to sanitize what war actually is - brutality.

The people who control drones murder civilians but ease their consciences by distance from the kill.

When you train a soldier to kill you brainwash away a bit of his human feelings. The fact that one of them returned with a snuff movie of the event shows how de-humanising military service can be.

Gordon Booth · 14-10-2012, 20:03

Well put, MargaretR.
No one is saying he was an innocent civilian- he was an insurgent.
So he must have been shooting at them or threatening them with a gun or explosives to identify him as an 'insurgent'.
These men are told you can't shoot a man because he has a gun,you can't shoot him if he points it at you, you can only shoot at him if he shoots at you. If that's too late for you tough-those are your 'Rules of Engagement'. How can you fight the Taliban on that basis?
Our troops are trained to kill to survive-but our Defence Secretary says ' they carry cards in their uniforms with the rules on them in case they should need to remind themselves'. What a fool!
'Hold on Mr Taliban,I know you've just tried to kill me/blow me up/killed my friends but just wait a minute while I get my little card out to see what I can do about that'.
In situations like that things may go wrong sometimes but-
What a way to destroy the moral of an army!
Mind you I wonder how someone can be foolish enough to record and keep film of something that at least in the aftermath of the event they know was wrong and broke the 'Rules of Engagement'.

cashman · 14-10-2012, 20:28

We have been discussing this n it sure beats the hell outa us.

If one agrees wi this war or whatever name they wish to put on it, Insurgent = Enemy,Marine= Trained Soldier, End result= Dead Insurgent, So whats the problem.

DaveinGermany · 14-10-2012, 20:46

The Lads on ops are bound by rules of engagement, Geneva convention & local procedures as dictated by the commanders in the field for ops relevant to prevailing threat levels.

When engaged & live fire is going down any kills are accepted as a necessity of the operational conditions, but from what I can gather, the firefight was over & the insurgent was wounded & a prisoner. Despite how much hatred or hurt there is the prisoner has to be "respected" & not mishandled & more importantly killed after the event. In doing so any soldier steps beyond the bounds of following orders & is open to prosecution for murder.

It's not easy if you've seen your oppoes being killed or maimed , but the Lads can't step beyond what's lawful & will lead to an escalation of barbarity & the our own would be mishandled or murdered if they were taken prisoner, so the rules of engagement are there for that reason.

But this situation would never have arisen had our lads not been there in the first place, being sacrificed for a stinking backward country, rife with corruption, bigotry & medieval attitudes, still we all know who's responsible for that decision don't we.

Guinness · 14-10-2012, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

Well put, MargaretR.

These men are told you can't shoot a man because he has a gun,you can't shoot him if he points it at you, you can only shoot at him if he shoots at you. If that's too late for you tough-those are your 'Rules of Engagement'.

Rules of engagement state that you can shoot if there is an attack or threat of attack..if he has a gun you can shoot him.

I'm guessing there is more to follow on this, can't see the MOD taking this kind of action unless someone out there had something damning and the proverbial was about to hit the fan.

cashman · 14-10-2012, 21:24

Meself i think Rules of Engagement should go out the window when yer fighting terrorists or barnpots that will strap a vest on n blow themselves n many innocents to glory. n not really give a toss who gets blown to hell,

The marines had already lost 7 of their mates on that 6 month tour of duty, shouldn't imagine insurgents gave a toss if rules of engagement were followed?

egg&chips · 14-10-2012, 21:41

What if every week a raffle was held in the House of Commons,with the lucky winner getting an all expenses paid trip to conduct a fact finding mission on the conditions endured by the average squad die in every theatre of war we are involved in. This would include ride alongside and, for those who are physically fit enough, accompanying troops on any but the most dangerous missions. How long do you think we would still be involved in such conflicts?

Retlaw · 14-10-2012, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

But this situation would never have arisen had our lads not been there in the first place, being sacrificed for a stinking backward country, rife with corruption, bigotry & medieval attitudes, still we all know who's responsible for that decision don't we.

The ones who should be on trial are the head of the Special Prosecution service & the whistle blower, what the ell went wrong, that some clown could shop his mates like this.

Michael1954 · 15-10-2012, 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retlaw

The ones who should be on trial are the head of the Special Prosecution service & the whistle blower, what the ell went wrong, that some clown could shop his mates like this.

From what I can gather, there was no whistle blower. A video on a lap top belonging to one of the marines was found by the police investigating a separate matter.

Mog · 15-10-2012, 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

The Lads on ops are bound by rules of engagement, Geneva convention & local procedures as dictated by the commanders in the field for ops relevant to prevailing threat levels.

When engaged & live fire is going down any kills are accepted as a necessity of the operational conditions, but from what I can gather, the firefight was over & the insurgent was wounded & a prisoner. Despite how much hatred or hurt there is the prisoner has to be "respected" & not mishandled & more importantly killed after the event. In doing so any soldier steps beyond the bounds of following orders & is open to prosecution for murder.

It's not easy if you've seen your oppoes being killed or maimed , but the Lads can't step beyond what's lawful & will lead to an escalation of barbarity & the our own would be mishandled or murdered if they were taken prisoner, so the rules of engagement are there for that reason.

But this situation would never have arisen had our lads not been there in the first place, being sacrificed for a stinking backward country, rife with corruption, bigotry & medieval attitudes, still we all know who's responsible for that decision don't we.

Let me tell you what would have happened if one of our men/women were captured by the Insurgents/Enemy.These are their rules. They would stone, beat and then parade the person and then publicly Behead them. And thats without looking at a little card. This is a war we shoudnt be involved in, If we dont like what happens. Bring them all home now and let them get on with it.

cashman · 15-10-2012, 08:18

These lads are charged wi murdering the same people "Taliban" that shot this 14 yr old girl in the head, A lass who's crime was to work fer education fer women,

Wonder if that act comes under Rules Of Engagement.

But then the British always abide by the rules,

DaveinGermany · 15-10-2012, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mog

Let me tell you what would have happened if one of our men/women were captured by the Insurgents/Enemy.These are their rules. They would stone, beat and then parade the person and then publicly Behead them.

In all probability yes, all of the above & more. But we've signed up to a code of conduct along with the Geneva convention & that is what earns our armed forces the respect & admiration the world over & sets them apart from the creatures they're fighting against.

Wynonie Harris · 15-10-2012, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

In all probability yes, all of the above & more. But we've signed up to a code of conduct along with the Geneva convention & that is what earns our armed forces the respect & admiration the world over & sets them apart from the creatures they're fighting against.

I can agree with that, especially as it comes from someone who's been there, done it and got the T-shirt.

cashman · 15-10-2012, 17:52

I must disagree wi the respect the world over, if yeh had said the "Civilised" world oer i could go wi that.