Help with English History!

LancYorkYankee · 20-10-2006, 00:51

Just finished watching Braveheart. Of course I felt pretty bad for the Scots. Is that more of an American reaction? How did the English common man feel about the Scottish?

I guess the same goes for the average young Englishman fighting the colonists. Did the English common man feel sorry for the colonists or consider them ungrateful wretches? (Personally, I felt bad for the English in this one!)

Remember, all my relatives were still over in Lancashire, Yorkshire, and Derbyshire, until the late 1800s to 1924. So I'm just curious as to how they would have felt. Kinda King/Queen right or wrong?

Thanks for any insight you can give!

Brian

Doug · 20-10-2006, 01:13

Despite being born in Accrington and having local connections with Blackburn going back to the 1840s, I have Scottish/Irish ancestry and feel proudly Celtic. Although I felt that the Film had little to do with the reality of Wallace or the plight of the Scots under the yoke of the Norman English I did feel uncomfortable and somewhat disturbed by the latter events relating to Wallace’s death. Maybe it’s was the anguish of the ages, the betrayal or just a sense of sympathy for his and the plight of the Scots, I don’t know. I watched the film only once and never brought myself to watch the end of it. I still haven’t.

Colonists are like male children, eventually they get cocky and to big for their boots. The same remedy should always be applied, a swift kick up the arse and a slap now and again to remind then of their origins.

steeljack · 20-10-2006, 01:57

incidental to the main topic one also has to remember that Mel Gibson has history of making anti English films/movies , beginning with Gallipoli , the Bounty , Braveheart , the Patriot , Mel Gibson has gone out of his way to be anti-English.
So I think one can take any historical authenticity in Mel Gibson's Braveheart (producer, director and actor credits) with a pinch of salt

garinda · 20-10-2006, 07:55

Having been an Englishman who has lived in Scotland, I was always treated with friendliness and respect, though I suspect it's not always the same welcome away from the cosmopolitan cities.

However there is a deep rooted hatred of the English, which is reinforced by the Scottish press. Everything from Culloden and Bannockburn to the Highland clearances, are brought up at every possible occasion, usually in the context of a sports match.

WillowTheWhisp · 20-10-2006, 09:42

The trouble with history is that all we know is what someone else has written and in most cases the person who made the record will have had their own bias - it's rare for others to delve deeper in an attempt to look for alternatve views.

I was attracted to history purely because of this when a teacher pointed out to me (at age 10) that what he was teaching us was not necessarly fact but merely perceived opinion. We were doing the Wars of the Roses at the time and I was inspired to find out as much as I could on the subject from as many different sources as possible, something which stayed with me for years and resulted in my joining the Richard III society and having a pretty poor opinion of Shakespeare.

However, as to the original question - when it comes down to England and Scotland, considering it was a Scottish king who came to the English throne how come it isn't England wanting independance from Scotland subsequently?

Being of partly Irish descent I suppose I naturally tend to come down with the Irish side for the sympathy/empathy there. (But N.I. is an entirely different kettle of ball game if I may borrow a phrase from Keith Waterhouse.)

Back to kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

garinda · 20-10-2006, 10:48

I think we should get an appology for the Romans invading England.

Less · 20-10-2006, 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

I think we should get an appology for the Romans invading England.

Yeah right on Rindy, but do you remember this from the life of Brian?

Quote:

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

SPUGGIE J · 20-10-2006, 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

Having been an Englishman who has lived in Scotland, I was always treated with friendliness and respect, though I suspect it's not always the same welcome away from the cosmopolitan cities.

However there is a deep rooted hatred of the English, which is reinforced by the Scottish press. Everything from Culloden and Bannockburn to the Highland clearances, are brought up at every possible occasion, usually in the context of a sports match.

Vey true. Never travel to the sticks unless prepared to take an ear bashing. Survived a wedding in Fort William dressed in a MacDonald kilt.

The hatred is just under the surface and dosnt take much to bring it up especially at Hogmany parties.

LancYorkYankee · 20-10-2006, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by steeljack

So I think one can take any historical authenticity in Mel Gibson's Braveheart (producer, director and actor credits) with a pinch of salt

Yeah, I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that Braveheart was a completely accurate portrail. Still, do the Scots/Irish have a "right" to dislike the English? Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general. This goes the other way for the common Englishman.

I agree Willow with the biases. Having been raised up "north", always thought the "south" deserved every bad thing that happened to em. However, now living down here I have a whole different view, certainly more balanced. I was embarassed by my ignorance.

It really hit when my parents were visiting and me mum took a fit at seeing the Confederate flag on some of the houses. "They shouldn't be allowed to have that, the stinkin rebels." My dad. always much more balanced merely stated that "it was a flag they fought and died for and have every right to fly it."

Less · 20-10-2006, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee

Do they more hate the English elite/politicos or just the English in general. This goes the other way for the common Englishman.

I think an example of like and dislike can actually be taken from football competitions, If the English team get knocked out of something such as the world cup the English fans will support The Scottish and the Irish (Eire) teams.
If however the Scots or the Irish get knocked out their fans will back anyone so long as it's NOT the English team!:engsmil:

Billcat · 20-10-2006, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Colonists are like male children, eventually they get cocky and to big for their boots. The same remedy should always be applied, a swift kick up the arse and a slap now and again to remind then of their origins.

Hmmm....kinda the attitude that Lord North had, and so annoyed fellows like John Adams, Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and George Washington.

If not for that, all this (USA) could have remained yours!

Less · 20-10-2006, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

John Adams, Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and George Washington.

If not for that, all this (USA) could have remained yours!

Who?

We had a lucky escape then!

semihere · 20-10-2006, 17:37

Hell, everyone in the world (or at least all the areas of the world map that used to be coloured red in British textbooks) should hate England. We're responsible for millions of brutal deaths throughout our bleak history.

I do know that the ordinary folks of Lancashire came out en masse to support the Union in the American Civil War against the oppressive slave labour of the Confederate states. The British establishment, however, supported the South. But isn't that the way it's been for most of time - a class war. The establishment supporting the rich, the everyday people supporting the poor and oppressed.

There were mass demonstrations in and around Manchester by the mill workers from all of the surrounding cotton towns. They had a close affinity with the slave workers who were even worse off than themselves through the links in the cotton industry - they picked, we wove.

Even when Ghandi came to these parts to explain to the workers why he was trying to take away their livelihood he was well received - because he was sticking up for the poor and oppressed.

Anyway, don't know much about local reaction to the American war of independence, but judging by other instances of oppressor vs oppressed (such as England's unfair high taxes on the people of the colonies in this case), the majority of the ordinary people probably supported the American bid for freedom.

WillowTheWhisp · 20-10-2006, 18:23

I've been to the Scottish highlands and never come across any anti-English feelings. One place we stayed was actually owned by an English couple and I doubt they'd have settled there if the neighbours were antagonistic.

The Welsh aren't too keen on us in some places. We had all that cottage burning malarky.

shillelagh · 20-10-2006, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Less

I think an example of like and dislike can actually be taken from football competitions, If the English team get knocked out of something such as the world cup the English fans will support The Scottish and the Irish (Eire) teams.
If however the Scots or the Irish get knocked out their fans will back anyone so long as it's NOT the English team!:engsmil:

Thats not true Less - my mum & dad always supported England when Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland werent playing or got kicked out of the competition. They both came from Northern Ireland. Mind you they didnt have taste - they were both Blackburn Rovers fans!

Anyway to get back onto topic .........

The welsh were fed up of english people buying the cottages for weekend homes and pricing the locals out of the house buying range. Then only turning up for the odd weekend and their local communities were suffering - shops shutting, businesses shutting etc. People who worked in the area couldnt find houses to buy and were then moving out of the area and going elsewhere.