Hiroshima on TV - Page 3

Neal · 08-08-2005, 14:11

Yes the bomb was a good idea. They treated prisoners badly and I wonder how many civilians were killed in Pearl Harbour and other attacks? Wonder how many people burned to death there?

I was a little annoyed at the BBC for the way they made the program; as if it was America's fault. If it hadn't had been dropped, there would have been a lot more wars since and up to now. At that time it was the right thing to do to end the blooshed.

entwisi · 08-08-2005, 14:30

ah but if the Yanks had made it it would have all been our fault!

But then again, they won the battle of Britain for us and the whole of WW2 was sorted out by them according to the way they tell the story now

WillowTheWhisp · 08-08-2005, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Turing did not leave a suicide note; although the cause of death was an apple contaminated with arsenic, the motive behind his death remains a mystery and one theory is that he was dealt with by the security forces because like a lot of gays he was a major security risk (think Burgess, Maclean, Blunt). He had also been convicted of a crime 2 years previously.

Wasn't the "crime" he was convicted of that of being homosexual and having a personal relationship with another man? The irony of that is that it would not be a crime today nor should it be. If he had been heterosexual and had a relationship with a woman would he have been regarded in the same way as a security risk? Yet many a man has been led to reveal secrets to an attractive young lady.

Apart from citing his sexuality as a security risk there was also reference to the fact that he had foreign connections (a friendship with a Norwegian gentleman I believe).

He was found to have died from cyanide poisoning and a half-eaten apple was found by his side. His mother believed that his death was an accident and that he had cyanide on his fingers and without realising it picked up the apple and began to eat it. He didn't even manage to eat the whole of the apple. There was certainly no suicide note mentioned and no reason given for why he should have committed suicide although he was bitter at the loss of his security clearance for no good reason and had said as much to one close friend. Bitterness is a long way from being suicidal and it's a bit of a slur on the man's character to assume as much when the truth remains a mystery.

There will always be speculation that he was "bumped off" and I wouldn't discount the as a mre likely possibility. The cyanide could have been added to the apple by the murderers to make it look accidental.

His contribution to the war should indeed be acknowledged and I for one admire anyone who can think out such intricate things.

Neil · 08-08-2005, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

last night showed equal jubilation from US soldiers when they were told of the bombing of Hiroshima.

That was before they saw the destruction.

Neil · 08-08-2005, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

His breaking of the U-boat Enigma code helped save hundreds if not thousands of lives in the Battle of the Atlantic.

I thought that they used an enigma machine rescued from a capture U-Boat for deciphering the Enigma code and that it was other codes that he deciphered with his computer machine thingy.

WillowTheWhisp · 08-08-2005, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

That was before they saw the destruction.

Yet I'm sure it could have been used for propaganda purposes. My point was that people are people and tend to cheer when they percieve their own side to be winning/have won something. It puts other events into perspective.

Wynonie Harris · 08-08-2005, 15:22

I always wondered why the statue had an apple in his hand - now I realise the significance!

Doug · 08-08-2005, 15:25

In perspective but on a greatly smaller scale. Troops are always jubilant in victory are when they have a result in Battle. It’s not personal it’s a way of dealing with a lot of feelings, its gallows humour……In NI a company of a famous unit had a big sign in the bar. It read “Vauxhall Astra –Built by robots, Stopped by D. Coy” to visiting troops and other services thought it was hilarious, but it commemorated the deaths of a number of joy riders including a beautiful young girl which these lads had to come to terms with in their own way…….any victory will be celebrated, get use to it because no matter how unpalatable it is if they stop doing so, they will stop coping………..

Doug · 08-08-2005, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynonie Harris

I always wondered why the statue had an apple in his hand - now I realise the significance!

But ask yourself why in 1954 he would go to the trouble of lacing an apple with cyanide in order to commit suicide? A bit over dramatic for the era don’t you think……..

WillowTheWhisp · 08-08-2005, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

In perspective but on a greatly smaller scale. Troops are always jubilant in victory are when they have a result in Battle. It’s not personal it’s a way of dealing with a lot of feelings, its gallows humour……In NI a company of a famous unit had a big sign in the bar. It read “Vauxhall Astra –Built by robots, Stopped by D. Coy” to visiting troops and other services thought it was hilarious, but it commemorated the deaths of a number of joy riders including a beautiful young girl which these lads had to come to terms with in their own way…….any victory will be celebrated, get use to it because no matter how unpalatable it is if they stop doing so, they will stop coping………..

Precisely Doug - and yet when someone is shown being jubilant when their perceived enemy (i.e. us) suffers then they are decried as little more than animals.

Wynonie Harris · 08-08-2005, 15:41

Nobody will ever know whether it was suicide or not. However, his conviction for homosexuality had resulted in the courts ordering him to undergo a course of oestrogen injections to control his libido. This, plus the close attention of the authorities, might have cause him to snap.

Tealeaf · 08-08-2005, 15:42

[QUOTE=WillowTheWhisp]
Wasn't the "crime" he was convicted of that of being homosexual and having a personal relationship with another man? QUOTE]

There has never been a crime of being a homosexual in this county; what was a crime, until 1967, was the committment of homosexual acts between adults. The law was changed in that year to allow for such acts between consenting adults and has since been amended to reduce the age to 16 (In other words, a paedophile's charter). So its quite simple; Turin, however great a mathematician and scientist, had been found guilty of committing a crime and as such was a criminal. End of story.

We appear to have digressed somewhat from the theme of this thread, that of the ethical and strategic case for nuking Japs in 1945. I know that 'Owd Bert does have a personal interest in this because had the US not done so he would have spent the following months and possibly years fighting his way up through the Japanese mainland, with all the risk of injury and death. However, I suspect he may be pleasantly surprised by the relative absence of whinging, do-gooding idealists on here and the fact that most of this younger generation would have been more than happy to join Capt Tibbets aboard the Enola Gay and press the bomb release button when the time was right.

WillowTheWhisp · 08-08-2005, 15:47

Just trying to clarify why he was a criminal Tealeaf so that people didn't get the idea he'd got a sideline as a burglar or something. I didn't say that being a homosexual was a crime. I said he was convicted of being one and of having a personal relationship with another man.

As you so rightly say, since 1957 that wouldn't have been a crime.

Being a non-active homosexual wouldn't have been a problem but there were, and are, many heterosexual males who didn't have long-term relationships and such a person can esily be a security risk if seduced by a wily female.

Doug · 08-08-2005, 15:56

A good point raised by Tealeaf there. Thousands of British and Commonwealth troops were already in theatre waiting to support mainland landings by the yanks…The Royal Navy was also there in numbers and the RAF was readying to redeploy much of the European Tactical Air Force to the Far East under Tiger Force. British losses would have been tremendous and many of our fathers and Grandfathers wouldn’t have made it back. That means we might not be here……………

WillowTheWhisp · 08-08-2005, 16:08

We can never know "what would have happened if............" and can only go forwards from where we are. The choices made at the time were made with the knowledge of the situation that people had at the time.

How much was known of the after effects and if more had been known would that have changed anything?

It's difficult to look at any situation of 60 years ago and see it as it was seen then rather than what we know today.

During the war my mother was told that Germans ate British children and she believed it! If anyone had told me something like that as a child I would have thought it was ludicrous.