Homeopathy Sceptics

[webglynne]

And is not treating like with like much the same as inoculations? And how many drugs are made after finding the benefits found from substances found in nature, plants and animals.


The demonstrators should find something usefull to do!

[MargaretR]

Originally Posted by webglynne

And is not treating like with like much the same as inoculations?

Vaccinations are a whole different ball game

The principle of treating 'like with like' is the same
BUT - injecting has a different effect from ingesting, and the vaccines are loaded with toxins needed for their manufacture and keeping qualities.

[grannyclaret]

i would rather take placebos,,,than Dr Harold Shipmans cure for aches and pains,,,,,,,,,if it seems to work why knock it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[SPUGGIE J]

What this thread has shown is that we do not have enough knowledge of this topic to be true judges of it. I threw in an example of plant extracts and bio cultures to food to show that we are in many ways ignorent of what can be best for us. The pharmaceutical companies have a monopoly and will try and suppress or discredit anything that can/will hit them in the pocket.

[blazey]

Originally Posted by shillelagh

BBC News - Sceptics stage homeopathy 'overdose' to discredit drugs


Homeopathy sceptics have staged a mass "overdose" of homeopathic remedies, in a bid to prove they have no effect. Protesters ate whole bottles of tablets at branches of Boots in places such as Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow, London, Leicester, Edinburgh and Birmingham.


But why .. if some people prefer to use homeopathic remedies rather than traditional medicine then let them.

But why protest outside boots because theyre selling them .. its not just boots that sell homeopathic remedies .. superdrug does, any chemist does, even holland and barratt do ... so why pick on boots ..

Anyway the protesters took an 'overdose' of some homeopathic remedies .. god knows what but still took an overdose .. thing is what would have happened if there was a reaction .. they'd have had to go to hospital for a stomach pump or whatever ..

Well maybe they're disgusted that people can profit from something that actually causes nothing but a placebo effect. To be fair, if someone was saying that their homeopathic remedy cured cancer and cost, I don't know, £100, we'd be disgusted because 1. we'd know it was a lie and 2. it'd be profiting off sick, potentially dying people.

They targeted Boots probably because it has the dominant position in the market and is the most visual target for impact.

I imagine that there would have been educated people about these things in their midsts as well who knew that you could take a large amount of them with no dangerous affect. Most protests about anything like that involve academics who spend their whole lives trying to prove their anti-capitalist point.

Fair play to them I say for caring enough about their cause to take the time to prove their point. It didn't harm anyone, unlike animal rights protesters and the likes, so it's fine by me. I can't stand people who cause harm to innocent people to prove some sort of point though.

[DaveinGermany]

Originally Posted by blazey

Well maybe they're disgusted that people can profit from something that actually causes nothing but a placebo effect. To be fair, if someone was saying that their homeopathic remedy cured cancer and cost, I don't know, £100, we'd be disgusted because 1. we'd know it was a lie and 2. it'd be profiting off sick, potentially dying people.

They targeted Boots probably because it has the dominant position in the market and is the most visual target for impact.

I imagine that there would have been educated people about these things in their midsts as well who knew that you could take a large amount of them with no dangerous affect. Most protests about anything like that involve academics who spend their whole lives trying to prove their anti-capitalist point.

Fair play to them I say for caring enough about their cause to take the time to prove their point. It didn't harm anyone, unlike animal rights protesters and the likes, so it's fine by me. I can't stand people who cause harm to innocent people to prove some sort of point though.

I think you'll find they aren't saying it'll cure "X Y & Z" more that it is an alternative to try when conventional methods don't seem to be working. secondly you can't claim something is guarenteed "to cure" unless it has gone through extensive tests & trials, so I don't believe the companies are saying this.

I'll give you the boots comment because if you're going to protest of course you'll go where you get the maximum attention. One thing in Boots favour though as opposed to some other Medical/Chemist shop chains is, I believe non of their testing of products are done on animals( I stand to be corrected should this not be true). So maybe a more disreputable company would've been better to demonstrate outside.

As to the Academics trying to "prove an Anti-Capitalist point" this I fear is a complete misnomer The Word Academic defines some one who has gone through Schooling / Uni / College gaining qualifications (presumably & at no small cost to the individuals family !) along their way so they can get a better job at the end of it all with "Better Pay" now there's a true anti capitalist ideal.

Yes I'll give you that as well, fair play for people who have the strength of belief strong enough to take them onto the streets to protest their feelings, but I'm sure the police were happy to give up their weekends with their families to make sure no one came to harm, due to the extra control required to ensure a peaceable demonstration & the flustered mums with small kids being even more stressed by being harangued for going into Boots to buy medicines for little Joihnny & Janeys cold .... yes have a nice Weekend !

[blazey]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

I think you'll find they aren't saying it'll cure "X Y & Z" more that it is an alternative to try when conventional methods don't seem to be working. secondly you can't claim something is guarenteed "to cure" unless it has gone through extensive tests & trials, so I don't believe the companies are saying this.

I'll give you the boots comment because if you're going to protest of course you'll go where you get the maximum attention. One thing in Boots favour though as opposed to some other Medical/Chemist shop chains is, I believe non of their testing of products are done on animals( I stand to be corrected should this not be true). So maybe a more disreputable company would've been better to demonstrate outside.

As to the Academics trying to "prove an Anti-Capitalist point" this I fear is a complete misnomer The Word Academic defines some one who has gone through Schooling / Uni / College gaining qualifications (presumably & at no small cost to the individuals family !) along their way so they can get a better job at the end of it all with "Better Pay" now there's a true anti capitalist ideal.

Yes I'll give you that as well, fair play for people who have the strength of belief strong enough to take them onto the streets to protest their feelings, but I'm sure the police were happy to give up their weekends with their families to make sure no one came to harm, due to the extra control required to ensure a peaceable demonstration & the flustered mums with small kids being even more stressed by being harangued for going into Boots to buy medicines for little Joihnny & Janeys cold .... yes have a nice Weekend !

I was using the word 'Academic' in reference to those who spend their lives researching for journals, books and conferences on specific topics, such as professors, lecturers or just full time researchers. Not just anyone with an education. I don't consider myself an 'Academic' and sadly, it costs me a hell of a lot of money so I don't consider it a capitalist thing either.

I personally take zero medicine accepted Ibuprofen for muscle ache. I don't believe that things like cough medicines and whatever else is used on too regular a basis actually does anyone any good, so I'm fortunate enough to not have to buy into any market, whether it be conventional or alternative medicine.

I don't think the protesters could have picked a better location personally and the whole point is to disrupt people who are shopping so then they actually see the effects (or lack of, rather) of what they are doing. There is no point picking a location that isn't going to get the attention of the people they are trying to prove a point to.

As for animal testing, it has been proven that the lives of the average person is extended by 20+ years thanks to medicines and other aids being tested on animals, so I'm only against it for cosmetic purposes personally. They can test whatever medicines they like on animals for all I care, providing it follows guidelines for animal welfare and doesn't cause unnecessary harm. Humans are tested on eventually so it's not such a massive deal for me.

As for police resources, well it is the government who decides whether these things require police attendance in the first place. I've been to small demonstrations that haven't had the police there. It's all just a matter of opinion on that issue. I agree that if it hadn't been well researched and there had been a health problem then that would be a waste of NHS resources though, but then there are wastes of NHS resources every night with people getting ridiculously drunk beyond what is necessary if you enjoy alcohol consumption. I'd rather people were trying to make the world better through their protest and risk a waste of resources than getting stupidly drunk and making no point and wasting the same, actually more resources.

So my opinion doesn't really change, though your points are valid. I've nothing against alternatives being available, but they should be regulated and be proven to actually have a real affect, especially if they are going to cost large amounts of money and be available straight off the shelf.

[garinda]

Conclusions: Homeopathy appeared to be at least as effective as conventional medical care in the treatment of patients with the three conditions studied.

Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. - The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine - 7(2):149

[garinda]

'The response to treatment as measured by the primary outcomes criterion for patients receiving homeopathy was 82.6%, for conventional medicine it was 68%. Improvement in less than 1 day and in 1 to 3 days was noted in 67.3% of the group receiving homeopathy and in 56.6% of those receiving conventional medicine.'

'The adverse events for those treated with conventional medicine was 22.3% versus 7.8% for those treated with homeopathy. Seventy-nine percent (79.0%) of patients treated with homeopathy were very satisfied and 65.1% of patients treated with conventional, medicine were very satisfied. In both treatment groups 60% of cases had consultations lasting between 5 and 15 minutes.'

'CONCLUSIONS: Homeopathy appeared to be at least as effective as conventional medical care in the treatment of patients with the three conditions studied.'

Homeopathy and conventional medicine: an outcomes ... [J Altern Complement Med. 2001] - PubMed result

[blazey]

Originally Posted by garinda

Conclusions: Homeopathy appeared to be at least as effective as conventional medical care in the treatment of patients with the three conditions studied.

Mary Ann Liebert, Inc. - The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine - 7(2):149

I think the issue is really the fact that there are SOME medicines on the market that market themselves as 'homeopathic' and aren't particularly well-regulated. Like with many things, some things just slip the net and jump on the bandwagon in order to reap the profits without giving the benefits. There is a lot of rubbish sold in Boots and other pharmacies that the NHS wouldn't dream of wasting money on, and I think that is the point.

[DaveinGermany]

I have no desire to go over & dissect your individual points in your post (37) as the relevant issues have been covered. All I will say is that some folk feel happier taking the Homoeopathic remedies & it works for them, therefore should they not be left this solace, rather than have it torn down at every turn as being "Fraudulent". Each to their own & live & let live ?

[blazey]

Originally Posted by DaveinGermany

I have no desire to go over & dissect your individual points in your post (37) as the relevant issues have been covered. All I will say is that some folk feel happier taking the Homoeopathic remedies & it works for them, therefore should they not be left this solace, rather than have it torn down at every turn as being "Fraudulent". Each to their own & live & let live ?

Well like I said, I have doubts about both conventional and homeopathic medicine, so I'm not disagreeing with you as such. But I'm not going to bother defending the pharmaceuticals industry in any sense because I find excessive pricing of medicines, conventional or otherwise, to be in bad taste.

[garinda]

I take thirteen different conventional drugs every four hours, and I benefit from them, even taking into account the side-effects.

I've taken homeopathic remedies, and have seen marked physical benefits, and there have been no noticable side-effects.

If you're unwell, and something makes you better, just be thankful, whatever it is.