How "bad off" are Americans? - Page 2

MargaretR · 18-04-2007, 19:19

*rich and unpopular*
not
*No wonder the world loves the U.S.*

well put Eric

Billcat · 18-04-2007, 20:02

What an asinine, ludicrous article!

It says that most Americans are unhappy with George W. Bush, then it goies on to mention air conditioning, runnning water and a whole host of other things that George certainly cannot take credit for.

Heck, I have any number of friends who are now former Republicans!

We've gotten ourselves and our allies mired in a useless, senseless war in Iraq. Any idiot (George W.!) could understand that the USA could easily win the ground war, but only those with a smidgen of intellect understood that "winning the peace" would be, by far, a much more difficult task. That part of the plan has been a colossal cock-up, at the cost of many lives and a mind-boggling financial cost, which will burden our children and grnadchildren. For a party that once styled itself as the fiscally responsible alternative, the Republicans have proven that they are, by far, the party that grossly overspends.

Let's talk hard facts....At the last election, the polls that some folks like to denigrate, were proven correct. The voters proved their discontent in no uncertain terms and voted for major change in our leadership.

George W. has certainly had every opportunity to paint his true image. George occupies an office that the last great Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, correctly called "A bully pulpit!" Unfortunately for America and the world, George and Shakespeare's character, Bottom, share a number of traits. Bottom's asinine condition, however, was only temporary!

JohnW · 19-04-2007, 12:12

Like Bullseyebarb, I am a Briish citizen but also an American citizen by choice not birth. I too consider this to be a great country and I am very happy living here. Of course it has problems and there is plenty wrong with it just like everywhere else, but the +'s well outweigh the -'s.
It should be remembered that Great Britain took on the role of world policeman for about a hundred years not all that far back. It generally falls to the most powerful nation to do that job. So, to all those who constanly say that America is doing a terrible job, let me ask you to consider the following. Up until the latter part of the last century, it was touch and go which was going to be the most powerful nation in the world. The period was known as the "cold war" and the two main contenders were Russia (representing the communist world) and the USA (representing the capitalist world.) How many of the USA haters out there consider it would have been better if Russia had come out on top? What kind of world do you think we would be living in now? When Russia marched into countries it was with the intention of taking them over (just like good old Great Britain did in its period of domination.) America has never marched into any country with the intention of collonisation. When they helped us out in the two world wars, they charged us for the goods we used which they supplied which someone mentioned has just been repaid. We will never be able to repay them for the lives of their young men which were cut short, and we're not talking a few odd thousand here, we're talking hundreds of thousands. America has been a great friend to Britain and generally speaking I think that has been reciprocated. It needs to stay that way, and Britain would be foolish indeed not to recognise that.
On the subject of Iraq. Quite frankly I would pull out all the troops and let the damned idiots kill each other and sort it out themselves. I really don't believe we can do any more there, our lads are just being used for target practice. We are stuck in the middle of a civil war. All countries which have ever been prominent in the past have all had their civil wars, maybe it's time for us to let the middle east have theirs. To those who constantly say that the west only went in because of oil - OK - let's think about that one for a minute. Let's agree that oil was certainly a part of the equation. If the western world does not get regular supplies of oil, what the hell do you think is going to happen? The oil isn't any more important to America than it is to Britain. Well without oil, the wheels of industry grind to a halt and our econmies go to hell in a handbasket. No money in the coffers to buy goods from abroad. So, as America is the biggest world market all the countries who supply them with their needs no longer make any sales. So, all their economies go to hell in the same handbasket. It would be a global disaster not just a disaster for the western world.
Let's just look at the countries which were defeated in World War 2. Germany and Japan. Did we collonise these countries and enslave their people? I don't think so. Both of these countries are doing very well indeed, much of their ability to become wealthy having been instigated by the countries which defeated them. This is the true measure of those countries. Our countries.
America is not a evil country. It is a good and generous country. Sometimes misguided? Yes. Do its politicians make blunders? Yes. Is the heart of its people in the right place? I believe so. It is a mistake to judge a country by its politicians, they come and go, a country endures because of its people.

LancYorkYankee · 19-04-2007, 16:38

Gosh I've missed you JohnW. Very well said indeed! Ever think of running for office. Nah, it'd never work. Way too much common sense.

Just another breath of fresh air from an Ex-Pat.

Brian

Ooops, forgot to add IMO!

Eric · 19-04-2007, 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW

Like Bullseyebarb, I am a Briish citizen but also an American citizen by choice not birth. I too consider this to be a great country and I am very happy living here. Of course it has problems and there is plenty wrong with it just like everywhere else, but the +'s well outweigh the -'s.
It should be remembered that Great Britain took on the role of world policeman for about a hundred years not all that far back. It generally falls to the most powerful nation to do that job. So, to all those who constanly say that America is doing a terrible job, let me ask you to consider the following. Up until the latter part of the last century, it was touch and go which was going to be the most powerful nation in the world. The period was known as the "cold war" and the two main contenders were Russia (representing the communist world) and the USA (representing the capitalist world.) How many of the USA haters out there consider it would have been better if Russia had come out on top? What kind of world do you think we would be living in now? When Russia marched into countries it was with the intention of taking them over (just like good old Great Britain did in its period of domination.) America has never marched into any country with the intention of collonisation. When they helped us out in the two world wars, they charged us for the goods we used which they supplied which someone mentioned has just been repaid. We will never be able to repay them for the lives of their young men which were cut short, and we're not talking a few odd thousand here, we're talking hundreds of thousands. America has been a great friend to Britain and generally speaking I think that has been reciprocated. It needs to stay that way, and Britain would be foolish indeed not to recognise that.
On the subject of Iraq. Quite frankly I would pull out all the troops and let the damned idiots kill each other and sort it out themselves. I really don't believe we can do any more there, our lads are just being used for target practice. We are stuck in the middle of a civil war. All countries which have ever been prominent in the past have all had their civil wars, maybe it's time for us to let the middle east have theirs. To those who constantly say that the west only went in because of oil - OK - let's think about that one for a minute. Let's agree that oil was certainly a part of the equation. If the western world does not get regular supplies of oil, what the hell do you think is going to happen? The oil isn't any more important to America than it is to Britain. Well without oil, the wheels of industry grind to a halt and our econmies go to hell in a handbasket. No money in the coffers to buy goods from abroad. So, as America is the biggest world market all the countries who supply them with their needs no longer make any sales. So, all their economies go to hell in the same handbasket. It would be a global disaster not just a disaster for the western world.
Let's just look at the countries which were defeated in World War 2. Germany and Japan. Did we collonise these countries and enslave their people? I don't think so. Both of these countries are doing very well indeed, much of their ability to become wealthy having been instigated by the countries which defeated them. This is the true measure of those countries. Our countries.
America is not a evil country. It is a good and generous country. Sometimes misguided? Yes. Do its politicians make blunders? Yes. Is the heart of its people in the right place? I believe so. It is a mistake to judge a country by its politicians, they come and go, a country endures because of its people.

The only thing I completely agree with is the last paragraph.

davo69 · 19-04-2007, 20:05

put your hand up are ass and we will doe what you say

Flash · 19-04-2007, 21:00

[quote=JohnW;412586] The period was known as the "cold war" and the two main contenders were Russia (representing the communist world) and the USA (representing the capitalist world.)

Bit patronising don't you think?

On the subject of Iraq. Quite frankly I would pull out all the troops and let the damned idiots kill each other and sort it out themselves. I really don't believe we can do any more there, our lads are just being used for target practice. We are stuck in the middle of a civil war. All countries which have ever been prominent in the past have all had their civil wars, maybe it's time for us to let the middle east have theirs.

Is that why America chose to create a civil war in Iraq? We, as allies, have found ourselves in the midst of a civil war and it is our fault. To pull out now would be to condemn thousands of people to die- Yes American and British soldiers are dying and will continue to do so before there is any form of stability- if that will ever be possible. We should not have gone in the first place but now Mr Bush and Mr Blair have achieved the mother of all f*** ups then 'our lads' as you call them will have to continue to pay for that misatke with their lives.
Truth, Justice and the American Way?- George shone the torch and Tony 'Mothman' Blair followed the beam of light. Together they would bring light to the darkness, destroy the axis of evil, wage the war on terror and of course- enable George to get Saddam fo his Daddy whilst potentially securing lucrative deals in regard to oil production and export from the region- everyones a winner.
As I see it for the next few years at the very very least that will continue to be some corner of a foreign field or more accurately desert that shall always be England.

Bazf · 19-04-2007, 22:19

Quote:

Is that why America chose to create a civil war in Iraq?

So America, created the civil war, amazing that Bush represent's America and Americans, but Blair did it himself. No guilt that the brits are there, just Blair decided, so its the Americans fault.
When was parliament disbanded?

Eric · 20-04-2007, 00:16

I do think that it is wrong to generalize and say things like America did this or that "bad" thing and then move easily from such an empty generalization of the nature of Americans. It is a fault that many Americans make when judgingm, say, the French based on the actions of Jaques Chirac. When our PM, Stephen Harper, says "I am sure I speak for all Canadians" most Canadians say "Like f**k you do Harper!" (For better or worse most Canadians do use expletives when talking about politicians).

Bazf · 20-04-2007, 01:35

So why get so upset when an American generalize about the British? Its ok to say our boys are getting killed because of Americans, but its not ok to say Americans are getting killed because of Brits? They are both there, both goverments voted to go, agree or disagree with the decision it was not follow my leader. Tony Blair does not have the overiding vote. Reading to much S*n and Daily Mail does cloud your judgement. I would be insulted as a British citizen if I thought that my goverment was so downtrodden that they had to follow another countries decisions and couldn't make its own. It would prove one of two things, the UK is the poor relation and can longer look at its self as any kind of player on the world stage, some what like Sweden, or the people who vote are so easily led they belieive everything they are told and never question the source. Niether of which is true, so why blame everyone else, stand up and take some responsibilty for what is in truth a sad and unmanagable situation.

LancYorkYankee · 20-04-2007, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by davo69

put your hand up are ass and we will doe what you say

Hmmm, since you offered

, I'll be sure to bring some plastic gloves to the May Meet. This should make for some interesting entertainment!

JohnW · 20-04-2007, 11:33

[quote=Flash;412850]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW

The period was known as the "cold war" and the two main contenders were Russia (representing the communist world) and the USA (representing the capitalist world.)

Bit patronising don't you think?

This was certainly not intended to be patronising, I was merely setting the stage for that particular part of my argument.

On the subject of Iraq. Quite frankly I would pull out all the troops and let the damned idiots kill each other and sort it out themselves. I really don't believe we can do any more there, our lads are just being used for target practice. We are stuck in the middle of a civil war. All countries which have ever been prominent in the past have all had their civil wars, maybe it's time for us to let the middle east have theirs.

Is that why America chose to create a civil war in Iraq? We, as allies, have found ourselves in the midst of a civil war and it is our fault. To pull out now would be to condemn thousands of people to die- Yes American and British soldiers are dying and will continue to do so before there is any form of stability- if that will ever be possible. We should not have gone in the first place but now Mr Bush and Mr Blair have achieved the mother of all f*** ups then 'our lads' as you call them will have to continue to pay for that misatke with their lives.
Truth, Justice and the American Way?- George shone the torch and Tony 'Mothman' Blair followed the beam of light. Together they would bring light to the darkness, destroy the axis of evil, wage the war on terror and of course- enable George to get Saddam fo his Daddy whilst potentially securing lucrative deals in regard to oil production and export from the region- everyones a winner.
As I see it for the next few years at the very very least that will continue to be some corner of a foreign field or more accurately desert that shall always be England.

I think Bazf answered most of this very well indeed. The proceeds from any lucractive oil deals which may have been secured will take a very long time to pay off the cost of the war, if ever.

JohnW · 20-04-2007, 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

The only thing I completely agree with is the last paragraph.

Well, would you care to expand on that and let us know which parts of the other paragraphs you don't agree with, and why? I always like to hear the other side of the argument.

SPUGGIE J · 20-04-2007, 12:29

Well regardless of where you live there will always be people who are unhappy on how that particular country is run. The USA is not on its own in that respect when you look world wide, as with the UK Russia and at the extreme end Zimbabwe. The fact that some countries populations can affect a change at the highest level means that they are not stuck in the rut for an indefinate period. GWB VP TB can all be elected out but think of Zimbabwe and its problems with a President (Mugabe) that wants and has total personal control of all that happens in his "little" empire. If compared to this mess we are very fortunate at what we have and shouldn't moan at the lot we have been dealt.

Billcat · 20-04-2007, 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW

It should be remembered that Great Britain took on the role of world policeman for about a hundred years not all that far back......Up until the latter part of the last century, it was touch and go which was going to be the most powerful nation in the world. The period was known as the "cold war" and the two main contenders were Russia.....America has never marched into any country with the intention of collonisation. ........On the subject of Iraq. Quite frankly I would pull out all the troops and let the damned idiots kill each other and sort it out themselves.

Great Britain took on the role of world policeman and, unfortunately, pretty much bankrupted themselves.

While Russia had nuclear weapons, they too were bankruptiing themselves trying to keep up with the USA. While the CIA regularly issued misleading reports about the "strength" of Russia's economy, the truth was that Russia had grossly overreached in their contest with the USA (and our western allies!) and economic implosion was inevitable.

America has never colonized? Total bull! Read the hsitory of how we acquired Hawaii sometime - it will enlighten you! Let's be realistic - All of the land that is the USA today was taken, often forcibly, from other people. Not to mention our long-term occupation and manipulation of other territory, such as Cuba and the Phillipines. We still hold Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and American Samoa, among others.

So, what is there to admire, in spite all this? Many of the things that we share in common with our friends in the UK! An elected, representative government, considerable freedoms, and a desire to make our countries (and the world) better places to live.