How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by gynn

My heart says NO but my head keeps asking about the implications of breaking agreements that have been signed over the past 40 years while we've been members.

If we go for a divorce, how much alimony will we be saddled with?

We should be worrying about what will happen in the next 140 years, and the state Britain will be in for our children, and grandchildren.

Bernard accuses those who are anti-E.U. of being 'insular'.

That certainly can't be said of the ever expanding politcal entity that the E.U. has become.

Will Britain be issued with similar crippling fines, if we don't provide generous social benefits on arrival, for the seventy million Turks who'll inevitably soon become members of the E.U., or the millions who live in dirt poor countries, once part of that other unworkable body, the U.S.S.R.?

None of whom will have paid one penny into this country's pot.

[garinda]

Many people still think of the UK’s contribution to the EU as a small sum. But under the 2007-13 financial perspective the UK’s contribution, after the reduced rebate, will be £10.2 billion a year.

To put the scale of this expenditure into context, this money could alternatively be used to:

- Cut council tax by nearly 50%:
- Build 40 brand new general hospitals each year
- Employ an extra 320,000 nurses each year
- Cut the main rate of corporation tax by 11p
- Cut the basic rate of income tax by 3p
- Raise the inheritance threshold from £300,000 to £2,925,000
- Raise the income tax personal allowance by £2000
- Cut petrol duty by 75%
- Pay the total bill for the London Olympics in less than one year.
http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/budget07.pdf

[garinda]

'Britain is the biggest loser from a massive £300 billion Brussels scheme to boost regional spending. (December 2010.)

The UK will get less than £160 per head of population from the EU’s structural and cohesion funds, set up to *narrow the gap between rich and poor European Union nations.

Even France and Germany, among the richest nations, get more than Britain, it emerged yesterday in figures obtained by non-profit making research group Bureau for Investigative Journalism.'

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: UK is biggest loser in £300bn EU handouts

[jaysay]

Well I was always pro Europe, but have certainly changed over recent years, when an organisation we joined to improve our trading with other member countries, grows into the mish mash it has become today, plus the fact we always seem to get the mucky end of the stick (I can't understand why, even though we are not in the euro zone we are expected to finance those who were daft enough to join) I think its time to (as John Wayne would have said) get the hell out of there

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by g jones

Bit sneaky Garinda to advertise a secret poll and the discuss individual votes. You have to be accountable. I have mixed feelings coming from a traditional socialist standpoint which has always had a general anti Eu view.

I did however come down not the side of yes on the basis it will come down to an issue of employment and taking on multi nationals.

Its also the best chance of sorting other issues such as fishing. There is a real issue waste and bureaucracy and Britains bloated confribution. Issue of EU laws is swings and roundabouts.

I have always previously been anti-European but the world is getting bigger than the UK.

WE(well, Ted Heath actually) gave away the fishing rights in order to get into the EEC.......so are you saying that after all these years, Britain is going to demand their ball back, and the EU are going to hand it over?

Somehow, I don't think that is going to happen.

We 'sleep walked' into this mess and there isn't a political party who have either the knowledge or the guts to clean it up.

I try to console myself into thinking it could have been much worse if we had followed Tony Blair's desire to join the Euro.......I try, but it doesn't work for me.

[entwisi]

Originally Posted by garinda

Couldn't agree more.

Which seems odd that we should be so closely tied economically, with just our European neighbours.

Not the emerging power house economies.

One of which we already have close associations with, through the Commonwealth.

Nail -> head

EU is not where we should be focussed. As someone who was pro europe for a time even I can see that the power now lies much further away.

[gynn]

One of the arguments in favour of joining the EU was that a stronger Europe could BENEFIT from trade with emerging nations.

The problem has been that far from strengthening Europe, the EU has weakened it because it failed to recognise the vast differences in the economic stability of each of its members. Instead of addressing those differences, it has swept them under the carpet, and has even "fiddled" the figures to allow new countries to join. Why was Greece allowed to keep the retirement age of 62?

The current problems have always been an accident waiting to happen.

[garinda]

Rather than be economically tied to mainland Europe, we should be capitalising on the fact that the international language of business in the world is English!

If Switzerland, with it's three official languages, and Norway, who are isolated in the fact that Norwegian is spoken nowhere else of any importance, can have strong economies, and good international trade links with the rest of the world, without having E.U. membership, we should be making the most of this massive language advantage.

This is ignoring the fact that not one member of the public in this country ever voted to have a government based in Brussels, issuing laws totally unconnected to trade, that we are now forced to live under.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by garinda

This is ignoring the fact that not one member of the public in this country ever voted to have a government based in Brussels, issuing laws totally unconnected to trade, that we are now forced to live under.

That, and the fact that it is undemocratic for us to have laws foisted on us by faceless(unelected) bureaucrats, who care nothing of the fabric of our society.

[garinda]

In the interest of fairness, and balance, yes voters, please feel free to provide facts and figures, illustrating how the British people have benefited from membership of the European Union.

As it seems the evidence doesn't seem to be getting through to those who are funding it.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by g jones

Its also the best chance of sorting other issues such as fishing. There is a real issue waste and bureaucracy and Britains bloated confribution. Issue of EU laws is swings and roundabouts.

I have always previously been anti-European but the world is getting bigger than the UK.

Same old same old that Bernard came out with - it's better to stay in because we can somehow "reform" the waste and bureaucracy of the EU. Absolutely no chance. The EU's own auditors have refused to sign off its accounts for 14 successive years because the whole organisation is so terminally corrupt. Do you think Britain on its own can make the slightest difference?

As for reforming our "bloated contribution" you must be joking. Whatever you think of Thatcher, one good thing she did was to "handbag" the EU's leaders into giving us our rebate. Blair has already given part of that away and for absolutely nothing in return. The EU mandarins are already talking about turning the screws on us even more.

I think though, that the final straw will be the imposition of the EU's directive on us to pay a full range of benefits to any EU citizen who pitches up, regardless of whether they have any connection with this country or whether they have paid anything into the system. This is so outrageously unfair, that all the scare stories from the political great and good, the CBI and anyone else will not make one iota of difference. All the more so, when, as Gary points out Turkey and other Eastern European countries join.

Unfortunately, it won't come to a referendum because those at the top in the Labour, Tory and LibDem parties don't share your confidence in the probability of a "stay in" vote. In fact, they're scared to death of the people actually having a say in the matter.

Personally, I won't be voting for any party that supports our continued membership of the EU.

[Margaret Pilkington]

How can the major players in the EU be relied upon to sort out the failing countries(and it isn't just Greece.......Spain, Portugal and Italy have their backs to the wall too) when they cannot get the EU budgets signed off?? Shouldn't that be a worrying signal??? As Steve says it isn't just one year that they have failed to pass budgetary scrutiny. It is an incredible 14 years. What would we do if this were a business failing in such basic financial standards? It would go to the wall and never be heard of again.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

How can the major players in the EU be relied upon to sort out the failing countries(and it isn't just Greece.......Spain, Portugal and Italy have their backs to the wall too) when they cannot get the EU budgets signed off?? Shouldn't that be a worrying signal??? As Steve says it isn't just one year that they have failed to pass budgetary scrutiny. It is an incredible 14 years. What would we do if this were a business failing in such basic financial standards? It would go to the wall and never be heard of again.

Ya Margaret if that had been a private company the Official Receiver would have been in ages ago

[garinda]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Ya Margaret if that had been a private company the Official Receiver would have been in ages ago

Peoples' desire for autonomy was the ultimate downfall of that other mad social experiment, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Folks will grudgingly accept and abide by laws passed in their own countries.

They're never as keen when forced to do so by some foreign power, from miles, and miles away.

Seems we're not either.

Judging by the poll...so far.

Especially if the votes of politicans are ignored.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by garinda

We should be worrying about what will happen in the next 140 years, and the state Britain will be in for our children, and grandchildren.

Bernard accuses those who are anti-E.U. of being 'insular'.

That certainly can't be said of the ever expanding politcal entity that the E.U. has become.

Will Britain be issued with similar crippling fines, if we don't provide generous social benefits on arrival, for the seventy million Turks who'll inevitably soon become members of the E.U., or the millions who live in dirt poor countries, once part of that other unworkable body, the U.S.S.R.?

None of whom will have paid one penny into this country's pot.

How does one avoid being "insular" when one lives on an island.

Come to think of it, I've never thought of the British as being "European", even when I lived there. Living on an island, surrounded by that big, beautiful moat, makes the folks there different from those on the mainland.

I can't vote because I'm a Canadian citizen, and, surprisingly, under 18 However, if I could, I would vote "out".

It will be interesting to see if any of the major parties makes membership in the EU (either "in" or "out") a plank in their official platform. I very much doubt it, except maybe for the Lib-Dems, and the way they are going it seems as if "major" is not an appropriate adjective for the party.

By the way, Happy Thanksgiving, eh.