How'd you vote in an E.U. referendum?

[garinda]

Besides, being 'difficult' isn't a good enough reason in my book not to do something, if it's the right thing to do.

That's 'if' the British people were allowed their say in a referendum, and 'if' they voted to leave the E.U.

I could happily post a hundered links showing how Britain suffers from it's E.U. membership.

Earlier in the thread I challenged the yes voters to provide evidence to show how Britain benefits.

So far the best that's been given is it would be difficult to leave.

I, and am sure the majority of us who've voted no, look forward to seeing some more compelling evidence from those who voted yes, as to how this country benefits as a member of the European Union.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by jaysay

The problem lies, untying all the red tape accumulated over the last 36 years Rindi, don't think its quite as simple as just waking up one morning and saying we're free we're on our own again

Yes , Jaysay , there is a problem , a big one , not just in untying 36 years' of red tape , but in also withdrawing from all the trading agreements set up by the UK through its 36 years of EEC/EU membership , which must be seen as a possibilty if we withdraw from the EU .

It is not a simple issue . Prior to joining the EEC we were members of EFTA , the European Free Trade Association . Since we left EFTA it has changed considerably .

If we were to make the decision to leave the EU , our government would need to be in negotiation with EU states and non-EU states to sort out the ways in which our economic affairs would relate to these states . Before our membership of the EEC much of our trade was tied up with Commonwealth countries , I'm thinking of such countries as Australia and New Zealand . But that's gone now .

There is no magic wand to be waved to take us back to the days before 1973 . Since then world trade has globalised in a way we would never have dreamt of . We can't go it alone .

How would negotiations go ? It's very problematic .

Irksome as directives from the EU can be , there would have to be a copper-bottomed guarantee that any alternative would be as good as or better than what we have to put up with now before I would consider voting for the alternative .

It's easy to be anti , but I have not yet seen any serious alternatives to EU membership put forward . It is a much more complicated and uncertain issue than just walking out because there is much we don't like . Before we know what would be the outcome of any proposed alternatives we shouldn't dream of any rash action that could put the livelihood of future generations of UK citizens at risk .

I could go on about the Kinnocks , about litres instead of pints , about the European Gravy Train etc. , but for me that all pales into insignificance when placed against the big issues that need to be addressed in this debate . The baby may not win a pretty baby competition , but let's not throw it out with the bath water . At the moment it's the only one we have.

As a Socialist at heart , though my brain tells me there is no way Socialism will be accepted in this country , I don't find it easy to say what I have just said .

[garinda]

Originally Posted by JCB

It's easy to be anti

Totally disagree.

If the majority of people decide, when asked about our E.U. membership for the very first time, decide Britain shouldn't be a part of it, despite how challenging that might be, that's what should happen, because that's democracy.

I'd say it's easier just to sit on our collective arses, and watch this once great nation sink deeper into the European Union mire.

Then again I've never been the sort of person to shy away doing what I know is the right thing, just because it might bloody difficult.

Perhaps you're more of a true European than me.

Happy to join your fellow Europeans, waving your little while flags of surrender, at the first sign of trouble.

I'm not.

I'm happier giving those that seek to harm this country a two fingered salute, and then getting on with the hard work at hand, which will mean the battle will eventually be won.

[Margaret Pilkington]

The big issues ....as well as the ones you have mentioned about trade( we don't do much now in the way of manufacturing do we?)There are the issues of unrestrained movement....immigration, not because the people who come here want to add to the prosperity, the economic pot of the country, but they know that we will hand out benefits to all and sundry.......because EU directives tell us we have to do this.
The EU is growing ever bigger....with the Eastern bloc countries and Turkey(please remind me....how long has Turkey been a European country, I was never very strong on geography) and all these people will want to come and dip their bread(paid for by us) into our gravy.

Another big, big issue for me, is that the people who make the laws in Brussels are not elected by us.......if we do not like what they do we can do absolutely nothing about it.

So we would no longer be in the EFTA(does this still exist today?) perhaps we could grow the kind of food that the people of this country want to buy and eat, without any meddling from the Eurocrats, telling farmers they must do this or they can't do that as it contravenes some stupid regulation which is protective of some other EU country's agricultural trade.
Maybe we could get our fishing rights back....not be throwing perfectly good fish(already dead) back into the water because again the EU says we can't catch that fish.

No-one has the cojones to sort out the financial problems that the single currency has brought, not just to Europe, but to the whole world. No-one is brave enough to tackle the beast that the EU has become.......mainly, I think because they(the politicians) all have a vested interest.......and while they sit and twiddle their thumbs we all go to hell in a hand cart

I'm no socialist, I'm no tory........I was an optimist, but I have, over the years been forced to become a realist.
I do not wish to be harnessed to the Beast of Europe. Give me my voice back!

[garinda]

Originally Posted by JCB

Yes , Jaysay , there is a problem , a big one , not just in untying 36 years' of red tape , but in also withdrawing from all the trading agreements set up by the UK through its 36 years of EEC/EU membership , which must be seen as a possibilty if we withdraw from the EU .

It is not a simple issue . Prior to joining the EEC we were members of EFTA , the European Free Trade Association . Since we left EFTA it has changed considerably .

If we were to make the decision to leave the EU , our government would need to be in negotiation with EU states and non-EU states to sort out the ways in which our economic affairs would relate to these states . Before our membership of the EEC much of our trade was tied up with Commonwealth countries , I'm thinking of such countries as Australia and New Zealand . But that's gone now .

There is no magic wand to be waved to take us back to the days before 1973 . Since then world trade has globalised in a way we would never have dreamt of . We can't go it alone .

How would negotiations go ? It's very problematic .

Irksome as directives from the EU can be , there would have to be a copper-bottomed guarantee that any alternative would be as good as or better than what we have to put up with now before I would consider voting for the alternative .

It's easy to be anti , but I have not yet seen any serious alternatives to EU membership put forward . It is a much more complicated and uncertain issue than just walking out because there is much we don't like . Before we know what would be the outcome of any proposed alternatives we shouldn't dream of any rash action that could put the livelihood of future generations of UK citizens at risk .

I could go on about the Kinnocks , about litres instead of pints , about the European Gravy Train etc. , but for me that all pales into insignificance when placed against the big issues that need to be addressed in this debate . The baby may not win a pretty baby competition , but let's not throw it out with the bath water . At the moment it's the only one we have.

As a Socialist at heart , though my brain tells me there is no way Socialism will be accepted in this country , I don't find it easy to say what I have just said .

Been to Norway?

Switzerland?

I have.

Great countries.

Strong economies, from good international trade.

Good standard of living for it's citizens.

Both achieved despite being non E.U. members.

[Margaret Pilkington]

As for the serious alternatives....no-one has thought of any, or looked for any, because the politiciains, rather than trying to think of viable alternatives, avoid confronting the real issues. They daren't even ask the population what they would like, because they know in their hearts what the answer would be........and then they would have to sit down and do some real work for a change.

No-one looks for a plan B if they think they can bamboozle the people into continuing with the rut that is plan A

[garinda]

Britain has a unique place as one of the world's great financial centres.

Watch and weep, whilst the E.U. imposes draconian taxes on the City that means we no longer figure on the world stage.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by garinda

Britain has a unique place as one of the world's great financial centres.

Watch and weep, whilst the E.U. imposes draconian taxes on the City that means we no longer figure on the world stage.

Yes, the Tobin Tax, which the EU wants to impose on all financial transactions. It will mean that the financial business that is the mainstay of London trading will be taken countries like Hong Kong and Singapore(and perhaps Tokyo). They will welcome our financial traders with open arms and bang goes an institution that employs numerous people....they will take flight from these shores.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Yes, the Tobin Tax, which the EU wants to impose on all financial transactions. It will mean that the financial business that is the mainstay of London trading will be taken countries like Hong Kong and Singapore(and perhaps Tokyo). They will welcome our financial traders with open arms and bang goes an institution that employs numerous people....they will take flight from these shores.

Still, if France and Germany think it's in our best interests....

[Margaret Pilkington]

What do you mean G........?
That France and Germany actually want our financial business to go to the far east?
So that we are left, finally humiliated without a pot to wazz in, and all these foreign mouths to feed.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by garinda

They were only added, because there's no emoticon for 'roll on the floor, and both cry and laugh hysterically, at the sheer stupidity that we accept these E.U. directives'.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Ah, I see now.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by garinda

Been to Norway?

Switzerland?

I have.

Great countries.

Strong economies, from good international trade.

Good standard of living for it's citizens.

Both achieved despite being non E.U. members.

I would prefer to see our country organised on the lines of Norway or Switzerland .

If anyone can prove to me that this can be done I would go for it .

I am not pro the EU , despite what I have said .
It is just that at the moment I do not see any viable alternatives . I believe that just to withdraw carries the danger of destroying the livelihoods of millions in this country . I am not prepared to see that .

I voted to leave the EEC in 1975 , but over the many years since then our economy has become so integrated with the economies of other EU countries that any hasty and poorly negotiated withdrawal would cause havoc .

I am just advising caution against precipitate action that could lead us into worse trouble than we are already in .

It's easy come up with anti-EU slogans , but that's not solving anything .
We don't seem to be able to have an informed , protracted discussion about the EU issue . It's what is needed to enable us to form views based on facts and genuine possibilities . That should not be to much to ask for .

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

What do you mean G........?
That France and Germany actually want our financial business to go to the far east?
So that we are left, finally humiliated without a pot to wazz in, and all these foreign mouths to feed.

Well, Frankfurt makes more geographical sense as a financial centre.

It's always been so unfair, the City of London being one of the world's greatest financial centres.

We've always had such an unfair advantage.

The international language of business being English.

The E.U. are probably just trying to right a terrible wrong.

Which will be the better for Britain in the long term...that's for sure.

They're our Euro brothers, and would never seek to harm us.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by JCB

We don't seem to be able to have an informed , protracted discussion about the EU issue . It's what is needed to enable us to form views based on facts and genuine possibilities . That should not be to much to ask for .

We don't have the opportunity for these discussions because our elected representatives do not wish us to have discussions.....they think we aren't savvy enough to have discussions....they don't want us queering their pitch on the EU gravy train, when it comes time for them to leave politics in this country.

They don't want the extra brain work that is required to deliver a viable alternative...they want to scare us into thinking that the EU is all there is. That there is no other way.