I actually agree with a Tory shock horror!!

[cmonstanley]

wonder how many deaths this will be responsible for by forcing people back to work with mental health issues.first it was care in the community now its care in the work place:

[Neil]

Originally Posted by wallop79

Neil that bill is before parliament right now, benefits will not be as we know them now, there all gonna be called universal credits. It's the biggest shake up in welfare reform that's ever happened, and about damn time too.

Do you know what the general idea of it will be?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

the biggest outsourcing will b e the private firm who make the decision if your eligable for a sick note

Thought you'd be applauding that.

All those jobs being created.

Millions unemployed etc.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

first it was care in the community

Hasn't that been a success?

We've welcomed you to our communal bosom.

Loooked after, and cared for you.

Made sure you've come to no harm.

Warned you to stay safely at a distance, when the dog stabbers have been wandering our streets.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Neil

What about capping the amount of benefits that can be claiming instead?

Not really thought about the implications of that, it just popped into my tiny mind when I read your comment above.

Think its in the pipeline Neil, £500 a week, the point being that it adds up to £25,000 per annum, there are people going out to work to keep their families not get £25,000 a year, so why should people who are not going out to work be better off

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

Gotta say its a ridiculous state of affairs, if they take that away from the docs,then the only people qualified to make that descision,should be "Specialists" in whatever field is relevant, i'm all fer nailing the dodgers, but genuine people are already suffering now, but they omit to tell yeh that, in fact we had that very discussion this afternoon.

In fact is, according to most doctors they are in agreement, a doctor on TV this morning said she was sued because she wanted a patient to return to work and they didn't want too

[wallop79]

Originally Posted by Neil

Do you know what the general idea of it will be?

Having read about the tax credits side of it at work, the tax credit part will close loopholes for fraud (hopefully), instead of as it is now telling HMRC how much you are going to earn for the coming year, they are going to be liasing with your employer on a monthly basis, so if your wages alter each month (either up or down) then your tax credits for that month will compensate. Basically as it says below they want people to work instead of having a welfare based state, and in theory take more children out of poverty. JSA & IS pay the same amount of money so there wont be any real changes there I dont think. ESA will be all about as it is now to try & get people back to work, the old ethos of I cant do that, I used to work as ... doesn't work anymore, its not what you cant do anymore but what you can do. I dont know whats going to happen to DLA, or carers allowance that I will have to read up on. But housing benefit & I think also council tax benefit will also come under the heading of universal credits.

Principles for reform

1. We would propose to use a set of principles to guide reform. They could be to:

• ensure that people can see that the clear rewards from taking all types of work outweigh the risks;
• further incentivise and encourage households and families to move into work and to increase the amount of work they do, by improving the rewards from work at low earnings, and helping them keep more of their earnings as they work harder;
• increase fairness between different groups of benefit recipients and between recipients and the taxpayer;
• continue to support those most in need and reduce the numbers of workless households and children in poverty and ensure that interactions with other systems of support for basic needs are considered;
• promote responsibility and positive behaviour, doing more to reward saving, strengthening the family and, in tandem with improving incentives, reinforcing conditionality;
• automate processes and maximise self service, to reduce the scope for fraud, error and overpayments. This could include a responsive and immediate service that saves the taxpayer significant amounts of money and ensures compliance costs for employers, at worst, no worse than under the current system; and
• ensure that the benefits and Tax Credits system is affordable in the short and longer term.

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by garinda

Thought you'd be applauding that.

All those jobs being created.

Millions unemployed etc.

what to give money to private equity firms that cost twice as much it does for civil servants do the same thing isnt saving money.its not creating jobs these jobs were already there but they are doin it on the cheap by being subsidized by the government so they can make ore money that doesnt make sense,that doesnt save moneythey are just fiddling the books because it doesnt come up as public spending.

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by wallop79

Having read about the tax credits side of it at work, the tax credit part will close loopholes for fraud (hopefully), instead of as it is now telling HMRC how much you are going to earn for the coming year, they are going to be liasing with your employer on a monthly basis, so if your wages alter each month (either up or down) then your tax credits for that month will compensate. Basically as it says below they want people to work instead of having a welfare based state, and in theory take more children out of poverty. JSA & IS pay the same amount of money so there wont be any real changes there I dont think. ESA will be all about as it is now to try & get people back to work, the old ethos of I cant do that, I used to work as ... doesn't work anymore, its not what you cant do anymore but what you can do. I dont know whats going to happen to DLA, or carers allowance that I will have to read up on. But housing benefit & I think also council tax benefit will also come under the heading of universal credits.

Principles for reform

1. We would propose to use a set of principles to guide reform. They could be to:

• ensure that people can see that the clear rewards from taking all types of work outweigh the risks;
• further incentivise and encourage households and families to move into work and to increase the amount of work they do, by improving the rewards from work at low earnings, and helping them keep more of their earnings as they work harder;
• increase fairness between different groups of benefit recipients and between recipients and the taxpayer;
• continue to support those most in need and reduce the numbers of workless households and children in poverty and ensure that interactions with other systems of support for basic needs are considered;
• promote responsibility and positive behaviour, doing more to reward saving, strengthening the family and, in tandem with improving incentives, reinforcing conditionality;
• automate processes and maximise self service, to reduce the scope for fraud, error and overpayments. This could include a responsive and immediate service that saves the taxpayer significant amounts of money and ensures compliance costs for employers, at worst, no worse than under the current system; and
• ensure that the benefits and Tax Credits system is affordable in the short and longer term.

all words how can they do self service wwithout fraud this means no civil servants just do it online which is the same old tory way say one thing and do the opposite

[cashman]

Originally Posted by jaysay

In fact is, according to most doctors they are in agreement, a doctor on TV this morning said she was sued because she wanted a patient to return to work and they didn't want too

so thats a good reason why a specialist in a field should make the decision,not a panel.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

what to give money to private equity firms that cost twice as much it does for civil servants do the same thing isnt saving money.its not creating jobs these jobs were already there but they are doin it on the cheap by being subsidized by the government so they can make ore money that doesnt make sense,that doesnt save moneythey are just fiddling the books because it doesnt come up as public spending.

You do talk a load of bollocks the civil service is and always has been top heave, if they had to run anything in the private sector they'd go bankrupt in 6 months

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

so thats a good reason why a specialist in a field should make the decision,not a panel.

Well they will be specialist cashy, specialist in eking out scroungers

[cmonstanley]

Originally Posted by jaysay

You do talk a load of bollocks the civil service is and always has been top heave, if they had to run anything in the private sector they'd go bankrupt in 6 months

wrong again it is more expensive to pay the private sector who give a poor service and are subsidized with extra money to let them make a profit.its the railways all over again

[cashman]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well they will be specialist cashy, specialist in eking out scroungers

Well if yer daft enough to think that, me family know different.

[cmonstanley]

yep wrong again as 200,000 civil servants this year alone have lost there jobs