I want your desk cleared by 5....

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by g jones

What I said has always been my view and said frequently in public. I must have had a few slurps and was misinterpreted!

In writing on here

[JCB]

Originally Posted by entwisi

To me the above is key, we ( Hyndburn) are a massive company and yet we let it be run by people who by the very way they are in position have no experience of running such an enterprise.

Hyndburn is not a massive company , it is the home of the people who live here .

I am using words similar to those of J.B.Priestley when he said , " Britain is not an economic enterprise . It is the home of the British people . "

Those who base their politics on Marxist or capitalist ideas will always see money as the key element within our society .

But people , not money , are our wealth .

[Margaret Pilkington]

Colin, I agree with the fact that people are our wealth.......but money is generated (in various ways) to look after the people of the borough.......and we need the best people to manage that resource.

It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

In local elections I never consider which party someone is aligned to........I only look at their track record for doing the job in hand....but I know that many people are blinded to who is best for the job by party politics.......foolish, but that is only my opinion.

[JCB]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

That's my view also , Margaret . I know some will say it's too idealistic , but it's worth working towards .

Even at the national level I see no clear water between the main parties . Having no major policy differences they resort to squabbling about petty matters and making personal attacks .

As for Hyndburn , what is the point of party labels ? I am sure that a body of independently minded men and women , elected because of their desire for the common good , would manage to work together , and do so effectively .

[Margaret Pilkington]

I don't see it being idealistic..but I do see it as being realistic.
All the councillors, regardless of their party, are in the job because they believe they have the skills to make the borough better in some way...and the electorate of their ward must think so too, or they would not have been elected.
I cannot abide the petty squabbles and point scoring....it takes energy and dynamism away from their reason for being on the council...and their energies would be better used in solving the problems of the borough.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Colin, I agree with the fact that people are our wealth.......but money is generated (in various ways) to look after the people of the borough.......and we need the best people to manage that resource.

It is easy to see how party politics can be counter productive in the use and distribution of precious resources......punch and judy politics are no servant to the people of Hyndburn
I would very much like to see local government de-politicised....get everyone working together for the common good of the community......not back biting and in-fighting because they see themselves as different...purely on the banner they travel under.

In local elections I never consider which party someone is aligned to........I only look at their track record for doing the job in hand....but I know that many people are blinded to who is best for the job by party politics.......foolish, but that is only my opinion.

You are dead right, hon. And a "de-politicised" council does work. At least, it works here. Our city council (it's a small city: 117, 000) oversees policing, fire department, ambulance service, sewer, water, natural gas, sports facilities (hockey rinks, football fields etc.), garbage pick up, road maintainece, city transit, and a lot more. And there is no party politics at City Hall. And for the life of me, I can't see why there should be.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Eric

You are dead right, hon. And a "de-politicised" council does work. At least, it works here. Our city council (it's a small city: 117, 000) oversees policing, fire department, ambulance service, sewer, water, natural gas, sports facilities (hockey rinks, football fields etc.), garbage pick up, road maintenance, city transit, and a lot more. And there is no party politics at City Hall. And for the life of me, I can't see why there should be.

The reason it won't work here Eric is the fact that its too far in grained into our way of life. Lets just say that next may HBC were to become totally independent from politics, and elections would be held to select new representatives, you would probably find that those people who served under a political banner would still be elected to the new council and there would still be the divides on both personal and political levels, think its called human nature

[Margaret Pilkington]

John...it wouldn't matter if elected members had previously fought a ward under a political banner.
The main point is, they would have been elected...chosen by the people for their skills and talents in managing some aspect of life for the borough...rather than being chosen just because they are Labour/Conservative/Independent.
There would be no political banner getting in the way of them doing a good job(or precluding them from being elected if they had the right skill/talents)...and no opportunity to sling mud...backbite purely on the grounds of their political banner.

They could all pull in the same direction for once instead of seeing other councillors as the enemy.

It has to be a better way.........and change of this sort has to be looked at, considered and tried before it is condemned out of hand.

It might even reduce the apathy in local politics...because I am pretty sure there are many people who don't vote or get involved with local politics, because of the antics of the national political parties.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

John...it wouldn't matter if elected members had previously fought a ward under a political banner.
The main point is, they would have been elected...chosen by the people for their skills and talents in managing some aspect of life for the borough...rather than being chosen just because they are Labour/Conservative/Independent.
There would be no political banner getting in the way of them doing a good job(or precluding them from being elected if they had the right skill/talents)...and no opportunity to sling mud...backbite purely on the grounds of their political banner.

They could all pull in the same direction for once instead of seeing other councillors as the enemy.

It has to be a better way.........and change of this sort has to be looked at, considered and tried before it is condemned out of hand.

Your missing my point Margaret, if the council were to go independent and, as I suspect, all the usual suspects are elected although now independent, do you actually think that old prejudices would just go away and it would be just one big happy family all working together for the good of the community it ain't going to happen believe me, you have two or three totally different points of view on what is wrong and what is the right way to do things, the once Labour members wouldn't agree with once Tory members or independent, it just wouldn't happen, they'd still be fighting in lumps, but instead of being parties it would be cliques one to the left and one to the right

[Margaret Pilkington]

No John, I am not missing your point......the elected candidates would not be independent at all. They would be unsponsored by any political party, which would open the way for people who have no political affiliations to stand for election...and rather than people being elected on which political dogmas and ideologies they support, they would instead be judged on their ability to serve the electorate of their own particular area.

It may be that some of the people already on the council would still be on the council, but this would be on their ability to do the job rather than which party they supported.
Council business is no place to score political points, and there is no room for petty egotisitical arguments.......it is a place where the business of the borough should be conducted with professionalism and dignity.
You are always going to have people with differing views, but if these views are not complicated by political dogmas, then compromise must surely be achieved in a more equitable way.

I have been to many meetings in my career....meeting where ideas and ideals were very different. People work out their differences and make compromises in an adult and civilised fashion.........are you telling me that councillors can't work in this manner?
And is this because of their political dogmas?...because, if that is what you are saying, then it should not be like that, and you have justified my view that things must change.
I have met people who say 'that won't work'....and frequently this is because they don't want to try it, they are afraid of change, and they really don't want it to work.

[Benipete]

I take your point Margaret but I can't see how 40 or so individuals squabbling over their own wards will be of any help.

[Margaret Pilkington]

It depends on why they are squabbling...whether the motives are due to political influences(which I suspect in many intances would be the case).If labour says it day...the conservatives would say it is night.....without even looking outside.
These are unwanted and unwarranted arguments. The prime concern of every elected councillor should be to make the borough better in any way that this can be achieved...if this is not how they want to work, then they should not be on the council in the first place.

If we have a council that is non political then maybe some of the barriers to progress would be removed...there would, of course, still be some differences of opinion....but most adults meet these every day in their working lives and manage to find equitable compromises.

The other thing is...if we take political sponsorship out of local government then maybe people who have no political allegiance(like myself) would be enabled to be more active in the business of the borough.
Not that I want to dabble in local government.

[g jones]

Inevitably if you had 35 independents they would have to form two or three teams to manage affairs and each other and you would end up back at a political structure we have now.

Independents is a utopian ideal that if it did exist would end up in grotesque unworkable chaos. Which indepndent would lead on which service and what if they had extreme views? What happend when another lead councillor has the opposite view and the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing? And if they do what they are doing but demand no compromise 'because they are independent and sticking to the will of their constituents'?

It would be a charter for political gridlock. Local Govermment needs people working together and people who share a simialr sense of direction in order for the wheels to turn.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Graham...I didn't mean independents in the sense of the independent political party.
I am talking about a consortium of councillors........and without political allegiances, they would work more like a board room works.
People would have responsibilities, according to their experiences,their skills and their talents.

I don't think party politics enhances local government. It gets in the way of cohesive working.

Never mind. I will just have to go on hoping that in some dim and distant future...when I am no longer around....someone will see that perhaps change is required, and that this cohesive working is better for everyone...until then, I suppose the petty squabbles will detract from the real work that needs doing in the borough.
C'est la vie.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

It depends on why they are squabbling...whether the motives are due to political influences(which I suspect in many intances would be the case).If labour says it day...the conservatives would say it is night.....without even looking outside.
These are unwanted and unwarranted arguments. The prime concern of every elected councillor should be to make the borough better in any way that this can be achieved...if this is not how they want to work, then they should not be on the council in the first place.

If we have a council that is non political then maybe some of the barriers to progress would be removed...there would, of course, still be some differences of opinion....but most adults meet these every day in their working lives and manage to find equitable compromises.

The other thing is...if we take political sponsorship out of local government then maybe people who have no political allegiance(like myself) would be enabled to be more active in the business of the borough.
Not that I want to dabble in local government.

I'm afraid some peoples' political blinkers have actually been welded to their heads, and have now rusted fast.

Anyone who joined a mainstream political party thirty plus years ago, knows the party of today is a million miles away from the party they joined as a new member.

Yet still they'll blindly support 'em. Caring not about how they've changed.

Just change political party for football team, and you can start to understand the unquestioning loyalty.

Mainstream party politics has changed, it's just the followers who remain the same.

Blinkered.