Is it any wonder children swear?

[fireman]

Oh hello Cashy reading your replies you must be well used to being an old fart eh. !!! on a serious note their is never , ever a need to use bad language in songs Think of beutiful south and the words Take me tonight had much more meaning than the original F--K me tonight.

[vorlon24]

Originally Posted by Garinda

I know we all have differing literary likes. You mentioned in another thread you read a red top newspaper, something which would bore me by........ page three.[img]images/smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't remember that - I sometimes notice the headlines while I am waiting in a queue in Smiths, but I don't tend to read any newspapers.

The paper I assume you refer to doesn't have any news in it anyway.

The only regular publication I read is F1 Racing - the logo for that is red!

That would probably bore a lot of people here silly as well...

And when I said that I blame the parents, that was related to the kids swearing, not the National Curriculum. That's down to the Government, who I didn't vote for.

[vorlon24]

Originally Posted by fireman

Oh hello Cashy reading your replies you must be well used to being an old fart eh. !!! on a serious note their is never , ever a need to use bad language in songs Think of beutiful south and the words Take me tonight had much more meaning than the original F--K me tonight.

How about Eminem? His work has a lot of meaning, and I don't think the swearing in that detracts from his songs. People may not like Rap, but some of his stuff is worth a listen, imo (but not for kids!)

Apologies for the double post

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by garinda

Even in the historical plays there are rude jokes that the live audiences of the time would have wet their breeches at.

You obviously understand a great deal more than I do. Although we studied Shakespeare at school no rude jokes were explained to us and I have never been aware of them.

I think parents should have an input into what their children are taught at school, and I applaud both Willow and her daughter's stand. I do however fear that it might result in the censoring of anything that might be deemed unsuitable not being taught at all.

Well, at one time it wouldn't have been taught. It would have been censored. I sort of naively think that when a film is censored as unsuitable for viewing in a cinema by children under a certain age then that should also apply to viewing in a classroom.

Educating Rita is the story of a working class Liverpudlian mother who found a new life through the studying of literature at university. Her language reflected her background, and could be talked about in context with a good teacher.

Things have obviously changed a lot in schools because such words would not have been discussed by teachers and pupils when I were a lass.

Talking of swearing, it's another bug bear of mine that when bad language is reported in the press as a quote, it is always asterixed. We all know the words alluded to, and it just seems stupid because our brains read it as a swear word anyway. F***ing daft.

WE may all know the words but I like to think that by using asterisks the idea is that those who know the words know what is being quoted and those who don't know the words are not being taught them by reading a newspaper.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by vorlon24

And when I said that I blame the parents, that was related to the kids swearing, not the National Curriculum. That's down to the Government, who I didn't vote for.

Well I've brought my children up not to swear and they don't enjoy hearing it from other people either but now my 14 year old has no option because it's part of her schooling. It's part of the National Curriculum and no doubt has been selected by people who feel that it doesn't matter about the language content.

I'm still trying to find out who chooses what books/plays etc will be selected for inclusion.

[garinda]

It wasn't just because I had a very good English master at school, it's widely known that Shakespeare wrote a lot of jokes into his plays that the earthy, sometimes illiterate rabble, would easily have got, but with the passgage of time we easily miss them because language evolves.

I personally hate swearing, especially by young people who use the f-word, usually many times in the same sentence, thus demeaning it's significance. I'd much rather see less swearing in the playground, which every child will encounter, a fact that may be aided by the reasoned discussion about how offensive language can be, even if it was discussed in the context of an English lesson.

I never in my life heard my father swear, even if he hit his thumb with a hammer he would say, for some reason, 'blood and sand'. An utterance so unusual, it was always as shocking to us as the use of a sexual profanity. All language is relative, and needs to be viewed in context.

[SPUGGIE J]

was the f word not what ladies of the night were charged in the middle ages ie for using carnal knowledge? If it was and the f word is now so common it has come a long way since then.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I don't care to listen to Eminem......and if he has a message, and can articulate it without the use of profanity then maybe, just maybe I would be prepared to listen.

Eminem is one of the artist who our young people like to emulate......and they think that what he says is OK for them to say too......well, I don't think it is. No more than seeing top football players mouthing bad language......it all seems to make this language acceptable to our young people. Kids pick up words like pigeons pick up peas......they can't help it. It is a parents (or adults ) job to make sure that children are made to see that there is hardly ever an excuse for bad language. And just because words exist doesn't mean that they have to be used.

Willow......good luck in your quest to protect your daughter from unsuitable reading matter.

[Acrylic-bob]

I would like to echo an earlier question, who decides what is offensive?

Everyone seems to be agreed that F**K, as swear words go, is pretty offensive. But no one has convincingly explained to me why this might be the case.

What is so offensive about common body parts or bodily functions or everyday actions or occupations?

Shakespeare, as has already been observed, contains a wealth of morally dodgy symbolism, much of which is now inaccessable to a modern audience. Shakespeare was adept at incorporating the profanities of the day and playing on them to satirise or to amuse or to shock. So did Chaucer who was, if anything, a good deal more earthy but, who was nevertheless once part of the National Curriculum.

Should we now shield our children from these two canons of the English Language on the grounds that they might hear something that was held to be offensive centuries ago?

Of course, nobody enjoys listening to speech in which every word is punctuated by the inclusion of the word F**K. It demonstrates laziness and lack of consideration for the listener and, more importantly, it becomes meaningless.

Expletives are the spice of language and, like all spices, they are used to best effect when used sparingly. I would never criticize a child for swearing, only swearing inappropriately!

[baby boo]

Originally Posted by grannyclaret

i am with willow...morals dont mean anything anymore,,, if you want to bring up your kids without the swearing and carryings on,then you are the one thats being a prude,,,,,
i wouldent like to go back to the victorian age, but i think were too lax now.

im sorry but theres no place for a child in this world then if your going to bring up a child without swearing.
they are only going to learn it off the streets and from their friends.

[WillowTheWhisp]

My children's close friends don't swear either. Some of you seem to find it very difficult to believe but there are children and young people out there who don't swear and don't like to hear others swear. I'm beginning to think they must be in a minority but they do still exist. Yes they are going to hear it from others. They do hear it from other children but they don't have to like it.

[baby boo]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

My children's close friends don't swear either. Some of you seem to find it very difficult to believe but there are children and young people out there who don't swear and don't like to hear others swear. I'm beginning to think they must be in a minority but they do still exist. Yes they are going to hear it from others. They do hear it from other children but they don't have to like it.

they wont like it , i dont like it but i can bet you bottom dollar that somtime they will use it! i hate swearing but ive done it occasionaly as it just comes out i then realise what i do and then i do actually apologise out loud even if i am on my own.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by garinda

I personally hate swearing, especially by young people who use the f-word, usually many times in the same sentence, thus demeaning it's significance.

How can you say that, I have seen you play the "what swear words can you get away with in chat" game

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by baby boo

they wont like it , i dont like it but i can bet you bottom dollar that somtime they will use it! i hate swearing but ive done it occasionaly as it just comes out i then realise what i do and then i do actually apologise out loud even if i am on my own.

This is what I was getting at with the title of the post - the more something is heard then the more likely it is to settle into one's brain and be there to call upon without really thinking. If it wasn't heard so much then it wouldn't be so readily available to the mind when frustrated/angry or whatever. By placing it before children in a learning context this is reinforcing the embedding of it in the brain.

My daughter felt extremely uncomfortable when faced with this word in class and I cannot imagine her wanting to use it in any situation. You may want to tell me that I'm deluding myself but I have seen and overheard her in stressed out situations and the worst she has come out with is "flippin grr!" and "oh for goodness sakes!" Believe me she doesn't get any more stressed than when her sister has messed up her room and used something of hers or she can't find what she's looking for because someone else has made the place untidy.

No doubt someone will tell me that the words she uses are no better than if she used the famous "f" word but to us there is a world of a difference.

Remember what a fuss there was at first when Alf Garnet called his wife a "silly moo"? Ah those were the days.

[baby boo]

if a woman or young girl was to be called a silly moo these days she would take it offensively as obviously it relates to being called a cow. i would rather be sworn at than called a cow.
same with the word bitch, who likes being called a dog? but yet its classed as a swear word so when a young child is learnig the word bitch people will automatically think first? is my child swearing?? or would they then realise that they were learning a new meaning for a lady dog??
or ba****d this word is in alot of films that is only realting to a child without a father??

Tw**t- a female fish??
where do we draw the line at what is swearing and what is not??