is John Wayne dead ?

steeljack · 22-04-2007, 05:37

ok , maybe the title of this thread is a bit off ......but in light of recent events here in the US , the mass killing on a college campus in Virginia , talk came up at dinner tonight amongst a group of friends about how each of us would we have reacted in a similar situation , I made a statement and was roundly condemed for saying that I thought the young men who were involved in this tragedy were a bunch of wimps , it seems from news reports that the only guy who made any effort to confront the gunman was an old guy 70 odd years old , I asked where was the spirit that the folks showed in fighting back on the United flight that crashed on Sept 11 in Pennsylvania when the terrorists tried to take over the flight , but it seems to me that someone could have tried to intervene whilst the guy was re-loading multiple times , but it seems most of the guys were either hiding under desks or jumping out of windows .
So , what do you folks think ? am I being too harsh or not ?
What would I have done ? I dont know , but I would hope I would have tried to do something......

mani · 22-04-2007, 06:08

well i think you are

details are only just emerging of what ppl did etc - there are still folk too injured to talk properly

there was a story in the local manc paper of how some egyptian student who was injured badly made movement on purpose so that the gunman wud turn to face him and shoot him again rather than other people in the room who were injured and alive.

Randy Dymond, a civil engineering professor, said Shaalan was credited with distracting gunman Cho Seung-Hui to save the life of a fellow student.

Dymond, who attended a service for Shaalan Thursday, said the Egyptian was in the first classroom Cho attacked and was badly wounded. Cho returned to the room twice to search for signs of life.

During one of those incidents, a second student who was uninjured, was playing dead. When Shaalan noticed Cho making a move to shoot the student, the Egyptian made a "protective movement to basically decoy the killer into thinking it was him making any kind of sound instead of the survivor," Dymond said.

Dymond declined to give the name of the student who survived, but said the student wanted him to tell the story "so that the family of Waleed understands the sacrifice."

Shaalan's mother broke down when she heard Dymond's account.

yeah does beg to ponder why a group of guys or someoen try not to rush him. fair enough theyre students but uni kids not school kids.

steeljack · 22-04-2007, 06:23

Mani , this is the first i have heard about this guy , so please understand I wasn't "digging" at anyone personally , I was just making a generalization that the 'American' media has been playing up the old guy (and his holocaust roots , yawn) as the hero of the tragedy and to my knowledge there has been no mention in the American media of Shaalan Waleed , credit to him and condolences to his family

panther · 22-04-2007, 07:15

sorry but i think i would too hide under tables.... i have never been near a firing gun, it must be a horrible sound , i dont care if i was called a coward, at least i would be alive, i suppose the only time i would do it, is if my kids where involved, and i thought they where in danger, THEN i would do anything to protect them!!

SamF · 22-04-2007, 09:42

I like to think I would do something, I have no dependants and I am physically able, I don't know about heaven/hell the afterlife but if the way I die is saving others then I can't think of a better way.

garinda · 22-04-2007, 10:00

An unarmed student, facing a barrage of gun fire, doesn't really have much of a chance for heroics.

Self preservation must kick in. I'm sure if any of them had the chance to unarm the gunman, they would have done. To label them as cowardly is very, very cruel.

Think about the acts of heroism that occured on the hijacked planes at 9/11. They reportedly did try to over power their captors, but only when they knew they were probably going to die.

It's like when you read of an old lady, who died from injuries sustained after being mugged. With hindsight, she shouldn't have fought back, and got beaten to a pulp, she should have left the scum have her bag, which could have been replaced.

I bet each one of those students would have tried to over power the gunman at Virginia Tech, if they had a chance, and to suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of sympathy, and understanding of human nature.

cashman · 22-04-2007, 10:18

cant agree steeljack, it depends more on the mindset of the person being attacked, was once attacked by a guy with a knife could have legged it,but either adrenalin or stupidity kicked in n i didnt, i dont regard that as (john wayne) nor would i knock anyone that legged it,people are all differant i imagine a gun is more frightening than a knife,but both are life threatening so i think i would probably do the same again, after thinking about this i guess that makes me Stupid, not John Wayne.

maxwell silver · 22-04-2007, 10:51

I'm sure with hindsight nearly all the survivors must be wishing they'd been the one to do the hero bit & disarm the killer,but one never knows how'd they'd react until in that situation.I think playing dead is a good option for survival,after all trained soldiers have done it in battle so why not innocent & untrained students.

garinda · 22-04-2007, 11:15

Let's not forget John Wayne was actually a namby-pamby actor.

He did actually apply to join the U.S. navy before he went to college...but was turned down!

grannyclaret · 22-04-2007, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

It's like when you read of an old lady, who died from injuries sustained after being mugged. With hindsight, she shouldn't have fought back, and got beaten to a pulp, she should have left the scum have her bag, which could have been replaced.

No chance,,,,,if it had been me,that chap would have had some VERY sore goolies ,,at least if i snuffed it, i would have tried even if i failed .......

...................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............
Let's not forget John Wayne was actually a namby-pamby actor.

ohhh he was my hero ...

garinda · 22-04-2007, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by grannyclaret

No chance,,,,,if it had been me,that chap would have had some VERY sore goolies ,,at least if i snuffed it, i would have tried even if i failed .......

...................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............
Let's not forget John Wayne was actually a namby-pamby actor.

ohhh he was my hero ...

I totally see where you are coming from Granny C. We should stand up to the scum, and they shouldn't be allowed to win. However, given a choice between you losing your bag, or not having you at all, I know which I'd prefer. After all, who would remind us that it was the first day of the month?

If I was a parent of a student at Virginia Tech, I'd much rather have my son or daughter safely back home with me, than dead in a coffin, with a floral tribute reading 'died trying to be heroic'.

Margaret Pilkington · 22-04-2007, 15:38

I think it is worth remembering that events such as this cause such shock to the system that literally paralyses folk with fear....rational thought becomes impossible because there is a sensory overload........loud noises, horrific sights,....sights that the students wouldn't ever expect to be faced with...so they had no coping mechanisms. They were like rabbits caught in the headlights.

While I am all for standing up to aggressors.......there isn't much you can do with an armful of books against an automatic weapon and a guy bent on exacting some kind of revenge...for the perceived sins of a society that he didn't feel able to belong to.

bullseyebarb · 22-04-2007, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

While I am all for standing up to aggressors.......there isn't much you can do with an armful of books against an automatic weapon and a guy bent on exacting some kind of revenge...for the perceived sins of a society that he didn't feel able to belong to.

Self defense 101.....throw books, (and desks for that matter), at the shooter. Anything to knock him off balance so that you have a window of opportunity to get the upper hand, (or flee the scene if you can). The element of surprise can often turn the tables. I doubt very many of these students had any prior knowledge of what to do should they find themselves in such a terrible situation.

WillowTheWhisp · 22-04-2007, 17:07

'The element of surprise' - I think there's your answer. He was the one who used the element of surprise. Someone just opening fire on you doesn't give you much time for rational thought or come up with ideas of surprise of your own. How many times have things taken you by surprise and then with hyndsight you can see how you would have reacted differently. All very well to analyse from the safe distance but there and then would any of us have been able to think straight?

bullseyebarb · 22-04-2007, 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

'The element of surprise' - I think there's your answer. He was the one who used the element of surprise. Someone just opening fire on you doesn't give you much time for rational thought or come up with ideas of surprise of your own. How many times have things taken you by surprise and then with hyndsight you can see how you would have reacted differently. All very well to analyse from the safe distance but there and then would any of us have been able to think straight?

As I said......they had received no preparation for this. That is the key. Most people breeze through life never thinking that something like this might happen to them. I am not one of them.