Joining the army not to fight?

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

Only in exercise operations as you have experienced to your own admission....Do you really know what happens on a war footing?
Do you consider rules of engagement?
Do you really know what goes on on a warship in a theatre of war?
Point me in the direction of your arguements and I will read it with interest.

First of all my naval experience ended in 1967. Things are different today. But the son of a very close friend was down at the Falklands and his son is now out in the gulf.

But yes I do know what happens on a war footing. My ship HMS Alamein with me onboard spent over 6 months around the Cyprus waters during the conflict on that island where (once again) the British were “piggy in the middle” trying to keep the peace. Now that wasn’t a fully blown out war at sea and there were no enemy naval craft trying to blow us out of the water (at least whilst we were moving) but we spent day after day after day at Damage Control State 2. That is one step down from action stations. Our job was to stop and search all craft, large or small, day or night in the Cyprus territorial waters. Some didn’t like being told to heave to and wait to be boarded and tried to outrun us. HMS Alamein was capable of 35 knots so they couldn’t do it and a shot across their bows convinced them of the futility to try.

On the odd night off duty, we spent our time at action stations whilst anchored off Kyrenia. Why? Because the EOKA terrorists were not averse to trying to plant limpet mines on our hull.

Not an all out war I grant you but as far as our duties were concerned it was the next best thing. The small arms fire from the “gun runners” was real enough and we had the scars on the upper deck to prove it and three bodies.

I never considered the rules of engagement. That was the skipper’s job. He led, we followed. Actually we couldn’t do anything else.

I’ve answered your questions even if you had to ask one twice. So how about you answering mine? Or is that too awkward to answer – hence ignore it.

Would you like to relate your experiences on a warship? I’m all agog.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by jambutty

First of all my naval experience ended in 1967. Things are different today. But the son of a very close friend was down at the Falklands and his son is now out in the gulf.


I never considered the rules of engagement. That was the skipper’s job. He led, we followed. Actually we couldn’t do anything else.

I’ve answered your questions even if you had to ask one twice. So how about you answering mine? Or is that too awkward to answer – hence ignore it.

Would you like to relate your experiences on a warship? I’m all agog.

I think you know the answer to that. I was in the Army and was actually on active service whilst in Malaya and have medals to prove it.
I am not the one who relates to experiences in 'War Games' and exercises in the Services.
You would be the first one to question a post if the subject matter was unclear.
I will put it another way. Have you ever been on active service?

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

I think you know the answer to that. I was in the Army and was actually on active service whilst in Malaya and have medals to prove it.
I am not the one who relates to experiences in 'War Games' and exercises in the Services.
You would be the first one to question a post if the subject matter was unclear.
I will put it another way. Have you ever been on active service?

Can you not read? It’s all there in my post #31.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

This might be of interest - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7463636.stm

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by jambutty

Can you not read? It’s all there in my post #31.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

This might be of interest - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7463636.stm

I can read alright.....Post 31 does not give the answer to my question.
When do you get situations where warships are travelling alone without support vessels?
Yes the article was of interest thanks.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

I can read alright.....Post 31 does not give the answer to my question.
When do you get situations where warships are travelling alone without support vessels?
Yes the article was of interest thanks.

What planet are you from Roy? It states that we were on a war footing off shore to Cyprus. DC2 is cruising in a war zone and DC1 is action stations when action was imminent.

We cruised on our own all the time in the Med when going to and from Malta and Gibraltar and on patrol. The only time that we cruised as a battle fleet was to and from Chatham heading for the Med and during work up exercises before taking up station off Cyprus. We patrolled the north side of Cyprus and one of our sister ships did the south side. We were part of the 2nd Destroyer squadron that consisted of the Alamein, Corunna, Barrosa and Agincourt, who was captain “D”. Two ships on patrol, one off on jollies around the Med and one tied up in Gib, usually going through some sort of refit. But that was then. Today it may be different.

Now about that question that you so pointedly ignore. Cat got your tongue???

[Gingerninja]

Originally Posted by Eric

Thanx .... that clears things up some .... so, that means that in the British forces, a woman could act as a forward artillery observer, as did the late Captain Goddard.

Eric - my husband (who claims he is right in everything and has been an infantry soldier for 24 years now) categorically states that no woman can take part in a front line combat role - there are female clerks, dog handlers, medical and educational staff - but no female infantry soldiers (it is against the law apparently) as for the observer bit - not sure on that one - in Telic(Iraq) and Herrrick (Afghanistan) female observers would probably not be used due to the obvious cultural implications - and just used for rear party (i.e not front-line) support duties.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Gingerninja

Eric - my husband (who claims he is right in everything and has been an infantry soldier for 24 years now) categorically states that no woman can take part in a front line combat role - there are female clerks, dog handlers, medical and educational staff - but no female infantry soldiers (it is against the law apparently) as for the observer bit - not sure on that one - in Telic(Iraq) and Herrrick (Afghanistan) female observers would probably not be used due to the obvious cultural implications - and just used for rear party (i.e not front-line) support duties.

ok ... that clears things up ... I hadn't thought of "the obvious cultural implications", but Canadians do not seem to be overly sensitive about that. As far as I know, women do not udertake "front line" duties in the Canadian infantry. They do serve on HMC ships, and, obviously in the artillery; and as far as I can remember, tho' I will have to check this out, women have served as crew members in the tanks of the Royal Canadian Dragoons.

Thing is .... and the vast majority of Canadians believe this ... it's time to get our soldiers out of there; the costs far outweigh the gains. 88 fine young men, and a very brave woman sent home in flag-draped coffins .... and for what

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Gingerninja

Eric - my husband (who claims he is right in everything and has been an infantry soldier for 24 years now) categorically states that no woman can take part in a front line combat role - there are female clerks, dog handlers, medical and educational staff - but no female infantry soldiers (it is against the law apparently) as for the observer bit - not sure on that one - in Telic(Iraq) and Herrrick (Afghanistan) female observers would probably not be used due to the obvious cultural implications - and just used for rear party (i.e not front-line) support duties.

The front line is where the enemy missiles, bullets and shells land, not where they are fired from.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by jambutty

The front line is where the enemy missiles, bullets and shells land, not where they are fired from.

If a serviceman or woman is mamed or killed in action whilst fighting the enemy............That is the front line.
Break it down into as many parts as you like....If a young woman is killed, as was the case with the young officer, the observation post was an obvious target for the enemy....this makes it the front line.
Don't come back with the obvious, women are not employed on the front line, been covered in previous arguements.
The Officer was placed in a quite legitimate job behind enemy lines, but, in the circumstances she lost her life.
Let's have the comment's from some ex serving soldiers who have been placed in a similar situation...Not from a long range sniper who knows sweet FA about the Army.

[jambutty]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

If a serviceman or woman is mamed or killed in action whilst fighting the enemy............That is the front line.

I do believe that “The front line is where the enemy missiles, bullets and shells land, not where they are fired from” already made that clear.

I never said that women are not employed on the front line. I stated that women would not be put in a position where hand-to-hand fighting was a possibility for pretty obvious reasons. Do keep up!

the observation post was an obvious target for the enemy....this makes it the front line.

Yeeees!

The Officer was placed in a quite legitimate job behind enemy lines,

So the enemy was firing towards a position behind its own lines then?

We used to have a saying in the navy that went, “engage brain BEFORE opening gob.” Actually that isn’t true, I made it up but nonetheless it certainly applies to you.

Can I draw your attention to your post #26 where you stated:
“Forward Observer to report target activity means in front of the guns, not on the Battlefield. A forward observation post is created to direct the fire of the guns. If an OP is spotted by the enemy and their guns fire to destroy the OP that is war.
An OP is not considered as 'Front Line'”

Do make up your mind. An OP is either front line or it isn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

However it is doubtful if Captain Goddard was behind enemy lines. The chances are that she was in front of our lines but not as far forward as to infiltrate the enemy lines. Target spotting behind enemy lines is usually reserved for the SAS, Royal Marine Commandos or Paras.

Talking of someone knowing sweet FA, as you put it, about something, your stupid statement of “If a warship is sent into a war situation, young seamen and female staff would be evacuated by chopper.” illustrates that quite perfectly.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by jambutty

I do believe that “The front line is where the enemy missiles, bullets and shells land, not where they are fired from” already made that clear.

I never said that women are not employed on the front line. I stated that women would not be put in a position where hand-to-hand fighting was a possibility for pretty obvious reasons. Do keep up!
Yeeees!
So the enemy was firing towards a position behind its own lines then?

We used to have a saying in the navy that went, “engage brain BEFORE opening gob.” Actually that isn’t true, I made it up but nonetheless it certainly applies to you.

Can I draw your attention to your post #26 where you stated:
“Forward Observer to report target activity means in front of the guns, not on the Battlefield. A forward observation post is created to direct the fire of the guns. If an OP is spotted by the enemy and their guns fire to destroy the OP that is war.
An OP is not considered as 'Front Line'”

Do make up your mind. An OP is either front line or it isn’t. You can’t have it both ways.

However it is doubtful if Captain Goddard was behind enemy lines. The chances are that she was in front of our lines but not as far forward as to infiltrate the enemy lines. Target spotting behind enemy lines is usually reserved for the SAS, Royal Marine Commandos or Paras.

Talking of someone knowing sweet FA, as you put it, about something, your stupid statement of “If a warship is sent into a war situation, young seamen and female staff would be evacuated by chopper.” illustrates that quite perfectly.

However you still haven’t told us your answer to my question. “Pray tell me how do you evacuate when the nearest ship or land is hundreds if not thousands of miles away?”

I'll leave you to pick the bones out of that lot....sad really.

[jambutty]

Why on earth should I want to ‘pick the bones’ out of something that I wrote? That’s your job except that you cannot because it illustrates the nonsensical rubbish that you publish from time to time.

Yes it is sad, sad that your reputation and credibility has been destroyed by your own hand.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by jambutty

Why on earth should I want to ‘pick the bones’ out of something that I wrote? That’s your job except that you cannot because it illustrates the nonsensical rubbish that you publish from time to time.

Yes it is sad, sad that your reputation and credibility has been destroyed by your own hand.

My job?...........reputation and credibility still intact.
Been there done it and got the medals to prove it.
What is sad....you still think you have a point to prove and it goes on and on.

[Gingerninja]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

If a serviceman or woman is mamed or killed in action whilst fighting the enemy............That is the front line.
Break it down into as many parts as you like....If a young woman is killed, as was the case with the young officer, the observation post was an obvious target for the enemy....this makes it the front line.
Don't come back with the obvious, women are not employed on the front line, been covered in previous arguements.
The Officer was placed in a quite legitimate job behind enemy lines, but, in the circumstances she lost her life.
Let's have the comment's from some ex serving soldiers who have been placed in a similar situation...Not from a long range sniper who knows sweet FA about the Army.

This long range sniper (outdated and derogatory term for an Army wife) - knows a lot more than you give me credit for - as i work for the British Army in Germany - I have been on exercises -I liaise with Brigadiers, Major Generals and the lads on the ground from Pte to WO1 - I'm part of Media Ops and I edit an Army magazine (oh and my husband is still serving after 24years) - if you look at my original post i said there are no women in the infantry and I will stand by that - I may know Sweet FA - but my husband knows a hell of a lot more about the army than most - he's been there - got the full chest of medals - and i ain't gonna argue with him!

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by Gingerninja

This long range sniper (outdated and derogatory term for an Army wife) - knows a lot more than you give me credit for - as i work for the British Army in Germany - I have been on exercises -I liaise with Brigadiers, Major Generals and the lads on the ground from Pte to WO1 - I'm part of Media Ops and I edit an Army magazine (oh and my husband is still serving after 24years) - if you look at my original post i said there are no women in the infantry and I will stand by that - I may know Sweet FA - but my husband knows a hell of a lot more about the army than most - he's been there - got the full chest of medals - and i ain't gonna argue with him!

I think you've got that wrong....The sweet FA thing was directed at an AB who was trying to give us all a lesson about the army.
Long range sniper...refering to Army wife...that must be something new.
Maybe an Infrantry or serving in Germany expression?