July 1st 92 years ago - Page 2

Retlaw · 01-07-2008, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

Sorry my link didn't seem to work ... but the Pals' web site is well worth a visit for those of you who haven't already been there .... there is even an old movie clip of the Pals marching past.

I have a copy of that film, managed to freeze frame it and identified
several of the men as they marched over West End Oswaldtwistle on August 1st 1915. Then I digitally copied them, removed all the blurring, touched them up, they are now in the William Turner collection.

The war diaries I obtained copies of them from Kew, they have been transcribed as near as possible. They are now in Accrington Library, there is also a copy in Fulwood Museum.

That pals web site does not list all the Accrington Pals, several are missing, and that does not include the many errors on that site. I have the names of over 4000 men who served in the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regiment. Since Bill Turner died, I have found 11 more, three of them last week.

Retlaw.

Eric · 01-07-2008, 20:18

Just as an aside, and it is something worth considering for any community impacted by that terrible day, July the first in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, is Memorial Day, a day on which Newfoundlanders remember the heroism of the First Newfoundland Regiment, a unit which, like the Pals, was a regiment formed of friends and brothers. The University in St. John's Nfld is called Memorial University to honor the memory of the men slaughered on July 1. The Newfoundlanders attacked at Beaumont Hamel, very close to Serre, where the Pals went over the top. Not that it is any of my business any more, but I think it would be a great idea, if every year on July 1, there was some formal recognition in Accrington and district of what those men of the Pals did. After all, the Accrington Pals are the most famous of the Pals battallions.

Andrew Jackson · 02-07-2008, 17:10

Eric - the kind words regarding the site are much appreciated. The war diary entry for 1 July 1916 - my own transcript, I should add! - can be found at:
http://www.pals.org.uk/pals_diary.htm

It's almost inevitable that a project of this size will contain errors. I'd hope that anyone who sees a mistake would wish to let me know so that it can be corrected.

Andrew

Eric · 02-07-2008, 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Jackson

Eric - the kind words regarding the site are much appreciated. The war diary entry for 1 July 1916 - my own transcript, I should add! - can be found at:
http://www.pals.org.uk/pals_diary.htm

It's almost inevitable that a project of this size will contain errors. I'd hope that anyone who sees a mistake would wish to let me know so that it can be corrected.

Andrew

What intrigues me about the war diary is that added sentence, mentioned in your note. Editing of war diaries and unit records in general, and cabinet minutes, etc. is troubling. However, in this case, there may be some truth in the addition of the sentence. In (and I think I am correct) Martin Middlebrooks fine book on the first day on the Somme, the author does mention that there were eye-witness accounts of some members of the Pals reaching their objective ... altho' it is not clear if the added sentence in the war diary is the source Middlebrook uses, or if there were actual accounts, other than this.

There is an interesting appendix to this book which lists the battaliions fighting on that day according to the number of casualties they suffered ... in this list the Pals come very high at number 5 ... (the dubious honor of being number 1 belongs to the 10th Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment, with the 1st Newfoundland Regiment holding down #2). A terrible day.

Retlaw · 02-07-2008, 19:04

[quote=Eric;601411]What intrigues me about the war diary is that added sentence, mentioned in your note. Editing of war diaries and unit records in general, and cabinet minutes, etc. is troubling. However, in this case, there may be some truth in the addition of the sentence. In (and I think I am correct) Martin Middlebrooks fine book on the first day on the Somme, the author does mention that there were eye-witness accounts of some members of the Pals reaching their objective ... altho' it is not clear if the added sentence in the war diary is the source Middlebrook uses, or if there were actual accounts, other than this.

Each Battalion had its own war diary, as did each division, some were not written up till days later.

Even Rickmans battle report shows discrepancies.

9am Cpl Rigby (wounded) belonging to 1st wave states that 7 of his platoon got into the German 1st line & held it for 20 mins. Captain Livesey was wounded.

11.25am Pte Glover 1st wave (servant) of Captain Livesey states 1st wave encountered heavy M.G. rifle, grenade and bombs in crossing no mans land.

Private Glovers account differs in so much that he could NOT have reported to Col Rickman, Glover was with Captain Livesey when they entered the German trenches, Livesey shot 5 Germans with his revolver, the Germans receiving reinforcements, Captain Livesey and Pte Glover withdrew to the shelter of shell hole, another shell landed close by, when Glover recovered he felt around in the dark but could not find Captain Livesey. Glover then made his way back to the British lines.

So who did Rickman talk to that morning.

Retlaw

Eric · 03-07-2008, 19:42

[quote=Retlaw;601424]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric

What intrigues me about the war diary is that added sentence, mentioned in your note. Editing of war diaries and unit records in general, and cabinet minutes, etc. is troubling. However, in this case, there may be some truth in the addition of the sentence. In (and I think I am correct) Martin Middlebrooks fine book on the first day on the Somme, the author does mention that there were eye-witness accounts of some members of the Pals reaching their objective ... altho' it is not clear if the added sentence in the war diary is the source Middlebrook uses, or if there were actual accounts, other than this.

Each Battalion had its own war diary, as did each division, some were not written up till days later.

Even Rickmans battle report shows discrepancies.

9am Cpl Rigby (wounded) belonging to 1st wave states that 7 of his platoon got into the German 1st line & held it for 20 mins. Captain Livesey was wounded.

11.25am Pte Glover 1st wave (servant) of Captain Livesey states 1st wave encountered heavy M.G. rifle, grenade and bombs in crossing no mans land.

Private Glovers account differs in so much that he could NOT have reported to Col Rickman, Glover was with Captain Livesey when they entered the German trenches, Livesey shot 5 Germans with his revolver, the Germans receiving reinforcements, Captain Livesey and Pte Glover withdrew to the shelter of shell hole, another shell landed close by, when Glover recovered he felt around in the dark but could not find Captain Livesey. Glover then made his way back to the British lines.

So who did Rickman talk to that morning.

Retlaw

I don't think anyone will ever know ... I suspect that everyone who survived those terrible minutes, was to some degree in shock ... I am aware that all units, had to keep diaries .... this according to King's Regulations ... and many unit commanders also kept diaries ... Haig's diary was probably the grossest piece of self-justifying fiction to come out of the war ... the problem with much archival material in the UK is that much of it has been edited so that it conforms to the Official Histories of the war ... there are some interesting observations on this is Denis Winter's recent book, "Haig's Command: A Reassesment." In order to find uncorrupted material, Winter had to use archives in Canada and Australia. Canada and Australia played such and important role in the war, and acted as semi-independent commands (the Canadian Corps, which was actually the size of an Army, always fought as a unit) ... the Canadian and the Australian govts. received copies of all important documents relating to the war ... (there is even a record of the incident where Robert Borden, the Canadian PM, grabbed Lloyd George by the lapels and shook him ... I believe it has something to do with 3rd Ypres, and heavy Canadian casualties)

Enough rambling ...

Eric · 04-07-2008, 19:35

Surfing around the web is fascinating .... I just wanted to check on the population of Accrington; so, I went to the Wikipedia entry, and, glancing thro' I noticed a comment that the old Accy Corporation Transport buses were painted in the Regimental colors of the Pals, and that the mudguards were painted black as a tribute to those who fell ... all the times that I road those lurching old Leylands and I never realized this.