Labour Party

[Laatab]

Less truly I am not an consulting anyone, i just took the time out to think about it. As for your quesion about the asian layer its not different than union block voting. BTW i'm not a union member either.

[Less]

Originally Posted by Laatab

Less truly I am not an consulting anyone, i just took the time out to think about it. As for your quesion about the asian layer its not different than union block voting. BTW i'm not a union member either.

BULLSHINE, no different to unions? Of course it is, I could join a union, become a leader put the country on one track or the other.
I could not however become an Asian Community Leader, no one would vote for me I'm the wrong race, however that wouldn't come into play, they aren't voted in like union bosses.

That to me is what's wrong, your kind bleat on about what is democratic but won't honestly answer a question about race and people taking advantage which is just as wrong as racialism.

[Laatab]

Originally Posted by Less

BULLSHINE, no different to unions? Of course it is, I could join a union, become a leader put the country on one track or the other.
I could not however become an Asian Community Leader, no one would vote for me I'm the wrong race, however that wouldn't come into play, they aren't voted in like union bosses.

That to me is what's wrong, your kind bleat on about what is democratic but won't honestly answer a question about race and people taking advantage which is just as wrong as racialism.

Well there's the nub isn't it. You believe you've been taken advantage of by the Asian community. I don't know you, I don't know your history, all I can tell you is that if its true its not because of anything they did but because they have something that we, the indigenous folk, for want of a way of putting it, threw away.

Community cohesion, that's what they still have that we don't. They attend their mosques and communal centres and they listen to the imam, they mingle in the street and visit each others houses and talk to one another just as we once did but no longer do. So unlike us they can come to a consensus as a community. So when some MP or councillor wants their votes they see the imam and offer something in return for the support they need. And if they don't deliver they are held to account.

We on the other hand get a leaflet through the door full of promises that we wont hold them accountable for because come the next election most of us will have forgotten any promises made and broken if we even bothered to read it. Because we are isolated, insular, don't attend our churches, no longer have our unions, don't even know our neighbours.

Its probably not what you want to hear Less but that's the dynamic that's been at play for decades. So its no good blaming them for succeeding. Its not them that's taken anything away from us. Its our own apathy and political complacency that's done that.

[Margaret Pilkington]

No, no, no......it isn't that at all.
The political complacency is a symptom of the fact that the electorate have been (in the main) used for their votes and then let down. That is the cause of political apathy.
Why vote if it does not bring about the change promised by the selected representative.

As to the Asian community voting how it is directed to vote by the religious leaders....in my mind that is not democracy. It is a brand of tribalism, where the head man directs what is going to be done...It is a form of autocracy, but in local pockets.

The community cohesion you speak of was fractured when whole families stopped living in the same street. When people had to move away either to,find work or to better themselves.
Working practices also broke up the indigent communities and also the fact that people no longer go to church or attend community social events(they are far fewer nowadays)
When you talk of community cohesion the Asians are a part of the reason why there isn't much of it.(well except in their communities).
The asians( in the main) do not integrate. Much of this is due to language difficulties in the older end of the community....But the younger Asians prefer to keep to their own people.

I worked in the NHS for almost 30 years and saw men and women from the Asian community who had been here in excess of twenty years and still did not speak English and required interpreters.
The fact that politicians tap into the Asian community is why the Labour open door policy was instigated. Tony Blair saw it as an infallible plan to hold onto political power, because these people could be relied upon to vote how they were told to vote.

We, on the other hand, think for ourselves, we critically appraise, we reason......well most of us do.....some will still just follow the colours of the flag the representative travels under.

[cashman]

I have to agree with Margaret, Political Complaceny Has come about cos NONE of the parties take heed of the people who elect em, simple as, The exact same reason has put Trump in line in the USA, a dangerous way to go imho, But i always say yeh get what you deserve.

[Laatab]

In reply to Margaret I don't see where we differ. You have just garnished what I have said to Less with more detail. I never said I agreed with way the Asian community arrive at a vote, I just described it. I like the pocket of autocracy idea which seems quite accurate and insightful. As for the apathy both yourself and cashman sum up some of the causes, to which can be added many more. I haven't read a post to this thread by anyone that doesn't show an understanding how we have been manipulated but the fact this discussion is taking place at all, over the garden wall of the internet, is some sign the apathy has been broken.

[Margaret Pilkington]

How we differ is in how you say we have 'given away'....no sorry. You didn't say that...you said we threw away our communities.
I am old enough to remember when relatives lived in one street...or at least very close by.....they were deifinite communities, they looked after each others children, they helped out when families were in need of help...if you kicked one they all limped.
So how can you say we threw that away?
We did no such thing. Life evolved, prices went up...it meant that people had to move to where the jobs were.......it meant that women who had previously stayed at home nurturing the family had to go out and get a job.
People wanted things they had not had before....homes with furniture that all matched...wall to wall carpet, a car and a foreign holiday. In short expectations rose.

People stopped going to Jumble sales( they wanted better than that and felt they deserved it) they stopped going to Bring and Buy sales for the same reason.
Churches fell out of favour because people found that for this new life style they had to work unsocial hours......also if you worked all week then Saturday and Sunday were the only days that you could do the stuff that is required to maintain a household.....vacuuming the carpets took precedence over going to Sunday morning church.

In Asian communities, the mosque holds sway over the thoughts, ideals and the basic tenets of daily life.....many married Asian women devote their time to looking after their family because that is their tradition.

They do not integrate with women outside of their own culture, they probably do not understand that they can choose to vote for someone other than who their imam or their husband tells them to....it is unthinkable to them to do that....so for them there is NO democracy...they are childlike in their subservience and compliance.

And if Less is in a community that is mainly Muslim and he is not included because of his race, or his religious preference, or colour then that is racism and exclusion...and were the tables turned and we were promoting such a system, then we would be heckled and castigated for it.

Community leaders can only lead if they can be respected by ALL members of their community...if the represent ALL aspects of the community life......ALL aspects of community need...and clearly these leaders do not,
They only represent the Muslim point of view.

[Less]

If I can use Liverpool in the sixties as an example you will see that we threw away nothing our communities were deliberately destroyed by politics.
I had relatives about four families all lived in or around Lowther St. Liverpool8 they were as Margaret described in each others pockets (typical scousers).

When the Council of the day decided to clear the Victorian houses and put the people into high rise flats, they deliberately split up the community, moving relatives sometimes as much as 3 miles away from each other, neighbours were also split apart, elderly relatives suddenly found themselves surrounded by strangers and with no-one to look after their day to day needs. There was no appeal system you couldn't be moved into the same block of flats as brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, aunts or uncles you went were you were put because no doubt 95% of you don't know what's good for you, so shut up and do as you are told.


This didn't just happen in Liverpool it happened nationwide wherever there was slum clearance. Our communities weren't thrown away they were stolen by uncaring misguided politicians.

[Laatab]

Ok I give up. Your so so right. Now what do you propose to do about it?

[Less]

Originally Posted by Laatab

Ok I give up. Your so so right. Now what do you propose to do about it?

You see you are now being separatist, that should read:-

Originally Posted by Laatab

Ok I give up. Your so so right. Now what do WE do about it?

[Less]

By the way, I had a day in Liverpool last Monday it is a beautiful City.

[Laatab]

Good observation Less. What should WE do about it?

[Margaret Pilkington]

Well, the really sensible thing would be to make sure that politics and politicians reflected the people and their views....took their needs and concerns into consideration. There has not been an awful lot of that happening.
The Asian community does not need to follow the imam and his influence should be in some way constrained......but how you could overcome that ...well I don't think it is possible.

Politics need to be transparent(except, of course, where such a policy would compromise national security)...it needs to find some way to ignite the interest of people.

The referendum has caused a lot of interest...made politics a talking point..but that is not enough.
If I had a magic want I would take party politics out of the local picture...and we would elect people to the council based on their ability to do the best job for the local community.

Politics needs to be less adversarial, less nasty, with fewer dirty tricks..now how you would do that....well, I think it would defy the wisdom of Job.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Less

If I can use Liverpool in the sixties as an example you will see that we threw away nothing our communities were deliberately destroyed by politics.
I had relatives about four families all lived in or around Lowther St. Liverpool8 they were as Margaret described in each others pockets (typical scousers).

When the Council of the day decided to clear the Victorian houses and put the people into high rise flats, they deliberately split up the community, moving relatives sometimes as much as 3 miles away from each other, neighbours were also split apart, elderly relatives suddenly found themselves surrounded by strangers and with no-one to look after their day to day needs. There was no appeal system you couldn't be moved into the same block of flats as brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, aunts or uncles you went were you were put because no doubt 95% of you don't know what's good for you, so shut up and do as you are told.


This didn't just happen in Liverpool it happened nationwide wherever there was slum clearance. Our communities weren't thrown away they were stolen by uncaring misguided politicians.

Less that reflects my Grandma's situation almost exactly. she lived in a one up and one down in Sheffield. There were about 8 other similar houses all attached to a communal courtyard with a wash house and toilets. Those families all looked out for each other. When my gran was going away she used to go and tell someone so they knew she was not at home..if they did not see her for more than a day...they used to go round to check she was alright.
This courtyard was knocked down to make way for a new road system...Gran was moved into a block of flats....not a ground floor flat, but six floors up. She knew no-one and no-one was there to check up on her.
Without her friends she just sort of faded away.
So yes, politicians did negatively impact the communities that they were supposed to be reperesenting.

[Barrie Yates]

The ultimate impact on communities in most areas was the influx of immigrants brought about by Blair/Brown. That way they got so many people into the country that had been given the opportunity to come and live in a civilised country, with law, health care, benefits, sanitation, schooling et al - and they would then vote for the people that gave them the opportunity. Of course that has been made worse by allowing immigrants to bring in their "families".