Leisure Trust Folds with £250k debts.

[Lampman]

Fear not Peter is riding to the rescue!
Leisure Trust Folds With 250k Debts (from Lancashire Telegraph)

[Ianto.W.]

Was it not recently that 'our leader PB' dished out free swimming free use of playing fields etc? surely the economics of Mr Micawber. Are the charges going to be reintroduced now the council is again footing the bill

[the funk]

Free swimming and free use of playing fields was health money which was given to the Council as this area is an area with poor health. Couple of months before an election PB and his cronies decide they need some positive news in the press and in the usual shortsighted way chuck that money to get kids swimming. Great for kids and families during the holidays but the fact the money was only committed for 1 year it probably means that in April 08 the free use will stop and the prices will revert back to what they were, but with an inflationary increase.

Leisure Trust is under-funded from HBC but has too small a portfolio to make it work with 2 ageing centres and a few old community buildings. Authorities generally enter into trust arrangements to generate savings which can be re-invested into the facilities, but I would doubt this has happened in this case, however Pendle operate their Leisure facilities through a Trust and they don't seem to be doing so badly.

Looking at the state of Hyndburn Sports Centre, we would be best served knocking it down, selling the land, and giving everyone a free bus pass to go and use facilities in Blackburn or Burnley!!!

[andrewb]

I've started using the gym at Hyndburn. I think its quite good. Only £1.50 a go because im a student too!

[g jones]

Originally Posted by the funk

Free swimming and free use of playing fields was health money which was given to the Council as this area is an area with poor health. Couple of months before an election PB and his cronies decide they need some positive news in the press and in the usual shortsighted way chuck that money to get kids swimming. Great for kids and families during the holidays but the fact the money was only committed for 1 year it probably means that in April 08 the free use will stop and the prices will revert back to what they were, but with an inflationary increase.

Leisure Trust is under-funded from HBC but has too small a portfolio to make it work with 2 ageing centres and a few old community buildings. Authorities generally enter into trust arrangements to generate savings which can be re-invested into the facilities, but I would doubt this has happened in this case, however Pendle operate their Leisure facilities through a Trust and they don't seem to be doing so badly.

Looking at the state of Hyndburn Sports Centre, we would be best served knocking it down, selling the land, and giving everyone a free bus pass to go and use facilities in Blackburn or Burnley!!!

I think the Council funded out of the Rates the free swimming which cost £15,000 and which has seen a huge increase in the number of junior users, as well as bringing more adults coming along with them. THe Health Authority contributed nothing.

The idea for the Free Sports Pitches and Half Price for Adults was mine, though you may say it was silly, along with reducing swimming costs for kids. PB then took it lock stock and barrel and implemented it. He may well end it April 08, I doubt it, we would not and he may consider that therefore he is unable to for political reasons. We said at the beginning that Health Authorities would fund this type of activity. I spoke with the Sports Minister who said the idea's were excellent and that he had given PCT's funds to support such activities.

The Leisure Trust is not underfunded by the Council. It receives nearly £1m a year subsidy with little democratic control on how our Rates are spent by them. Two years ago the Trust pushed for taking on more of the Council's Leisure/Arts service's. Pendle has just entered a Trust. I told Alan Davies (leader lib dem) not to but they were in to deep and said reports from Hyndburn (which they based theirs on) was a runaway success. I told him then it wasn't and he was being fooled by a 'political elite'.

My view is the Trust is badly run. Too top heavy. A case of small is ugly as it lacks capacity and therefore is unable to take strategic decisions.

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by g jones

Pendle has just entered a Trust.

Has it ? Whats the difference between the one thats been in place for the last few years and the one you are talking about ?

I have to say my brief contact so far with Hyndburn Sports Centre makes it look very Steptoe'ish compared to the way Pendle run their leisure facilities.

[Gayle]

Isn't it always the case that lumping services together in order to save costs results in lack of vision and individuality?

It might seem a good idea to 'streamline' things i.e. HR, wages, finance etc but in fact it doesn't streamline things but it ends up putting additional layers of admin into the organisation and less 'doers'.

[harwood red]

Originally Posted by Gayle

It might seem a good idea to 'streamline' things i.e. HR

Yep would agree but bloody hard work

sorry Gayle couldn't resist

[the funk]

Originally Posted by g jones

I think the Council funded out of the Rates the free swimming which cost £15,000 and which has seen a huge increase in the number of junior users, as well as bringing more adults coming along with them. THe Health Authority contributed nothing.

The idea for the Free Sports Pitches and Half Price for Adults was mine, though you may say it was silly, along with reducing swimming costs for kids. PB then took it lock stock and barrel and implemented it. He may well end it April 08, I doubt it, we would not and he may consider that therefore he is unable to for political reasons. We said at the beginning that Health Authorities would fund this type of activity. I spoke with the Sports Minister who said the idea's were excellent and that he had given PCT's funds to support such activities.

The Leisure Trust is not underfunded by the Council. It receives nearly £1m a year subsidy with little democratic control on how our Rates are spent by them. Two years ago the Trust pushed for taking on more of the Council's Leisure/Arts service's. Pendle has just entered a Trust. I told Alan Davies (leader lib dem) not to but they were in to deep and said reports from Hyndburn (which they based theirs on) was a runaway success. I told him then it wasn't and he was being fooled by a 'political elite'.

My view is the Trust is badly run. Too top heavy. A case of small is ugly as it lacks capacity and therefore is unable to take strategic decisions.

Definately agree its badly run. Let me just quantify that I go on knowledge gained from speaking to people within the authority, things may not be 100% right.

I never think that 'free' is the way to go, people see no value to things that are free, it doesnt promote a sense of belonging or investment of time, whilst many kids may be swimming (and thus occupying themselves constructively) the number who will continue to do that if/when charges come back in will severly drop. Short termism is counter-productive.

If HBC has funded this scheme then I do hope that it continues year after year. I thought it was from the money the council got as a spearhead authority, but as I say I may be wrong.

The trust was created because it was felt it could deliver the best value of services at the time, so if it comes back to HBC control why will things be anything different?

[shillelagh]

Can I ask something?

When it was made over into the trust did the ownership of the buildings transfer to the trust or was it just the operating of the centres go into the trust and ownership still belong to the council and so the cost of maintaining the buildings and land still belong to the council?

Is not Haworth Art Gallery exhibits held in trust for the people of hyndburn? But does the gallery itself not come under LCC?

Why im asking is because in the other thread on this is i was being nosy which i admitted to and tried to find the trusts website - and i couldnt find it. Gayle posted the link to it and i had a look - compared to another trusts website i couldnt believe the difference. I prefer the others - more information, less hassle at looking for something regarding any of the centres.

[Ianto.W.]

g jones,I think the Council funded out of the Rates the free swimming which cost £15,000 and which has seen a huge increase in the number of junior users, as well as bringing more adults coming along with them. THe Health Authority contributed nothing.

How much money was allocated to this 'trust' and how much of it was spent on adminstration costs, and how much was spent on 'leisure' activities

[g jones]

Originally Posted by the funk

Funk;

Definately agree its badly run. Let me just quantify that I go on knowledge gained from speaking to people within the authority, things may not be 100% right.

I never think that 'free' is the way to go, people see no value to things that are free, it doesnt promote a sense of belonging or investment of time, whilst many kids may be swimming (and thus occupying themselves constructively) the number who will continue to do that if/when charges come back in will severly drop. Short termism is counter-productive.

If HBC has funded this scheme then I do hope that it continues year after year. I thought it was from the money the council got as a spearhead authority, but as I say I may be wrong.

The trust was created because it was felt it could deliver the best value of services at the time, so if it comes back to HBC control why will things be anything different?

shillaeigh;

When it was made over into the trust did the ownership of the buildings transfer to the trust or was it just the operating of the centres go into the trust and ownership still belong to the council and so the cost of maintaining the buildings and land still belong to the council?

Ian;
£15,000 spent on admin or swimming

Ian first. It was a one off annual payment that was a guesstimate on previous years useage. Whether more or less went was not part of the deal. The Leisure Trust had recovered last years income plus a little more and had a heap of new kids and adults coming through the door.

Shilleaigh. Buildings were not part of the deal. The Council owns them. The Trust just ran services and borrowed money for infrastructure. The Council were the underwriters of the Trust because the Trust had no assets and was new company. I would argue - why should we allow people outside the Council to spend Rate Payers money - ? They are not accountable if it all goes wrong. They just go into liquidation and leave the Council with a surprise bill. It was all set up as a tax dodge as the only reason. The Trust is exempt from VAT and Non Domestic rates (Business rates). The Government if it believes in democracy (and all to often Blair didn't IMHO) need to legislate to stop quango's handling public money as a Tax Dodge's etc...

Funk;
Free is great for kids because it takes down barriers to access, they are all equal to a point, and it also cuts costs of collecting monies (pitches eg). As you say it is occupying kids time constructively. That's what the majority of people in Hyndburn want I believe. Lets give our kids as positive an experience as we can. That's what I believe.

Sometimes when people pay for things they think it acceptable to trash them 'because they have paid for them'. When things are free people sometimes can respect them more, and I have heard this comment many times, "they are already giving it for free, why wreck it?". It goes both ways and I often believe vandals are vandals whether they pay or they don't.

The Council is far from a spearhead authority. It is an exceptionally poor authority (housing crises, leisure services crises, town centre's struggling, no vision, moral corruption, £600,000 wasted on website etc..) but because it ticks all the bureaucracy boxes well it is about to graded as a 'good' authority. The £15,000 is directly out of residents pockets via Poll Tax/Rates

As for the future. That again is opinions. I opposed the Leisure Trust in the beginning. I thought it would struggle for a number of reasons. Leisure services getting more competitive. Tired buildings. Dispersed Leisure services. Small management team carrying heavy office costs. Personalities at the head of the Trust. They were just too small in the end and were paying for things twice (that the Council had been doing on a much bigger scale before). They didn't own the buildings, so the Council switched off to the infrastructure and the Trust couldn't or were not big enough to make strategic decisions.