Live 8 - Page 2

garinda · 03-07-2005, 21:56

Blimey! Change my tablets quick, l agree with a lot of what A-b just posted.

Yesterday was about awareness. We are talking about it now, just as people all over the world will be. Not just the music, but the political issues raised and if a conccert can or should be able to change policy towards third world debt.

As for the reason why the super powers aren't too bothered about genocide and corruption is there's no money in it. The 'World Police' hat only seems to be donned when it suits, the rest of the time a blind eye is much the prefered and easiest option.

Sooooooooooooo glad someone out there liked Pink Floyd, there's always one.

WillowTheWhisp · 03-07-2005, 22:11

There's two. I liked them as well.

I would like to think that Live 8 having drawn our attention to the various different situations in Africa will have done some good. I'd like to hope that changed will take place but I have to agree with A-b that throwing money at it isn't the answer. If the money goes into the pockets of the oppressors it simply makes some of those situations worse.

On the one hand we have the almost ludicrous PC situation here where you daren't mention anyone else's religion or ethnic origins for fear of being branded a racist whilst elsewhere ethnic cleansing takes place and the rest of the world doesn't bat an eyelid. Makes you wonder somewhat about the sense of proportion doesn't it?

I'm just watching a program about Rwanda and Sudan. Perhaps without Live 8 this program wouldn't have been shown. But will telling us about it actually help to change anything?

I feel that we are fighting a losing battle and desperately wish we weren't.

Wynonie Harris · 03-07-2005, 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by garinda

As for the reason why the super powers aren't too bothered about genocide and corruption is there's no money in it. The 'World Police' hat only seems to be donned when it suits, the rest of the time a blind eye is much the prefered and easiest option.

If only they had oil in Zimbabwe!

big al · 03-07-2005, 22:23

While some may well have gone for a "free concert" it is like the 9p beans in the supermarket. A loss leader to attract attention to other items. So who could not go or watch on tv & not now know about the main issue of relieving third world debt. However one Mr G Bush has finally made a comment I do agree on. There is no point in relieving third world debt while corrupt politicians & governments are allowed to continue as they have, simply to end up back at stage one in another twenty years time. It must be written in & agreement obtained that these greedy obnoxious self centred officials must be dealt with & replaced with a system that will ensure that this does not happen again. Otherwise it will be as bad as casting pearls before swine. It will take more time than one days concert or a day or two at Gleneagles by eight influential men to achieve this. However the writing is now firmly on the wall & as we all know good graffitti is hard to remove.

Acrylic-bob · 04-07-2005, 04:13

Some members have suggested tht the concerts were about "raising awareness".
Whose awareness?

The problems of Africa and the poor of the world have consumed more acres of newsprint and miles of videotape than any other subject. Do we have such a short collective attention span that we need a handful of strutting poseurs to remind us of our obligations every twenty years or so?

Or was it perhaps the awareness of politicians? Errmmm, weren't debt re-structuring and trade issues already on the agenda of the G8 conference before Saint Geldoff stuck his foul-mouthed oar in? Seen in this light Live8 is little more than a bandwagon for the self-satisfied and the sanctimonious, a vehicle for the political enthusiasms of people with more money than sense and more influence than is good in any democracy.

Acrylic-bob · 04-07-2005, 04:34

If you really wanted to show your support and solidarity with the poor of the world how about doing something to help them to help themselves. Our supermarkets now carry a range of fair trade products. If every one of us made a resolution to include just one of these products in our weekly shopping basket it would do more positive good than all of Saint Geldoff's rantings.

For those of you of a more radical disposition how about writing to the ambassadors of Zimbabwe or Sudan and telling them where you think their governments are going wrong and what a bunch corrupt murdering b*st*rds you think they are - in a loving and inclusive and politically correct way, of course.

The only way things will change in Africa is if the people at the top are made to feel the disgust of the world at their abuses. Sanctions against South Africa changed the political climate there. The reason why Mugabe calls the British Government "Gay Gangsters" is because he fears the effect that sanctions will have on his own tenure.

We don't need Saint Geldoff and his chums to be anything other than what they are, a pleasant distraction or aural wallpaper. The tools that will effect change in the world are in our own hands - they always have been!

big al · 04-07-2005, 08:33

But doesn't familiarity breed contempt Bob. Having the details 24/7 in our faces for years & it has no meaning. To get a wake up call is no bad thing. Aty the end of the day it is down to eight men on Wednesday who may or may not have set an agenda, but they are now aware of not just fellings of a few aging rockers but that of a global audience & I for one would not like to be in one of their seats on Wednesday & come away having done nothing.

garinda · 04-07-2005, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Some members have suggested tht the concerts were about "raising awareness".
Whose awareness?

The problems of Africa and the poor of the world have consumed more acres of newsprint and miles of videotape than any other subject. Do we have such a short collective attention span that we need a handful of strutting poseurs to remind us of our obligations every twenty years or so?

Or was it perhaps the awareness of politicians? Errmmm, weren't debt re-structuring and trade issues already on the agenda of the G8 conference before Saint Geldoff stuck his foul-mouthed oar in? Seen in this light Live8 is little more than a bandwagon for the self-satisfied and the sanctimonious, a vehicle for the political enthusiasms of people with more money than sense and more influence than is good in any democracy.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????

Errr. 'Raising awareness' was the stated aim of Live 8, as opposed to raising money back in '85 at the original Live Aid concert. So it wasn't any 'members' here who gave it that tag line.

'The problems of Africa and the poor of the world have consumed more acres of newsprint and miles of videotape than any other subject.'

The above statement is just plain wrong.

More than sport/soap operas/ even page 3 stunners?

Try and keep your argument within the realms of some common sense. Also not forgetting that a lot of people have no idea of the shock that was felt when the Michael Buerk reports were first broadcast on the BBC back in 1984, which started the whole ball rolling.

P.S. Just because l said in another thread that Pink Floyd were the musical equivalent of masterbation and you are the only person who said that they enjoyed them, don't get tetchy.

Gayle · 04-07-2005, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

If you really wanted to show your support and solidarity with the poor of the world how about doing something to help them to help themselves. Our supermarkets now carry a range of fair trade products. If every one of us made a resolution to include just one of these products in our weekly shopping basket it would do more positive good than all of Saint Geldoff's rantings.

For those of you of a more radical disposition how about writing to the ambassadors of Zimbabwe or Sudan and telling them where you think their governments are going wrong and what a bunch corrupt murdering b*st*rds you think they are - in a loving and inclusive and politically correct way, of course.

The only way things will change in Africa is if the people at the top are made to feel the disgust of the world at their abuses. Sanctions against South Africa changed the political climate there. The reason why Mugabe calls the British Government "Gay Gangsters" is because he fears the effect that sanctions will have on his own tenure.

We don't need Saint Geldoff and his chums to be anything other than what they are, a pleasant distraction or aural wallpaper. The tools that will effect change in the world are in our own hands - they always have been!

Once again A-B you're taking your usual bullish approach and berating us all for not being as informed about things as you are. The simple fact is that a lot of people didn't have a clue about what was going on in Africa and I'll bet that very few people even knew the G8 summit was taking place - they do now!

The concert on Saturday was about awareness on two levels - firstly making all the people of the UK (and around the world) aware of the problems in Africa (if Joss Stone and people of her generation didn't know before hand then they do now). Secondly, making world leaders aware of the strength of feeling of the people - I think they might just have got the point!

I agree, Aid won't help (that's been proven as even Bob Geldof admitted that the situation was worse than it was 20 years ago), neither will wholesale wiping off the debt but giving African nations the tools to help themselves might just help a little. Yes, you're right we should be using fair trade products - let's see, did everyone know about them? - probably not, but they might now because we're aware of it, we're discussing it.

Tealeaf · 04-07-2005, 15:57

There is, at this moment, a plastic bag of 'Genunine Accy Air' for sale on ebay. I would assume that no one would be foolish enough to bid for such an item; common sense should tell you that it is someone having a laugh and trying to obtain a little bit of cheap publicity

Suppose, however,that logic and rationale are suddenly abandoned and a large part of the populace are overcome by a dire need to get a sniff of "Genuine Accy Air"; caution is thrown to the wind and financial prudence is forgot as there is a mad scramble to obtain an Accy bag. Hundreds of bags are made available and sold at no inconsiderable sum. Does this sound crazy? Well, think of all those idiots who are walking round with one pound rubber bands on their wrists, in aid of whatever wacky cause they personally espouse.

Now increase this act of collective loonacy by a factor of 10 and place every one of these plonkers in Hyde Park, outside the Brandenburg Gate or by the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia and have them subject to half a day's worth of amplified noise created by some of the wealthiest people on the planet (and at one point addressed by the wealthiest man on the planet). What is the purpose of this exercise, you may ask?

Well, the answer is most peculiar. Apparently, while we're all supposed to somehow enjoy this garbage, these characters want to relieve you of your money and give it to a place called Africa. 'Ah' you may say 'but we've been doing that for years'

Yes, we have - and what difference has this aid made? The answer is, surprisingly,an awful lot. Once reasonably prosperous countries, with economies that worked and a bequethed democracy are now reduced to wastelands, fought over by savages while impoverised citizens lie around all day swatting flys and awaiting their next delivery of Red Cross Rice.

Meanwhile, the aid industry is doing very well, thank you. I have no doubt as I am writing this there will be gleeful meetings occuring in the boardroms of Mercedes-Benz and Toyota as decisions are taken on the new car showrooms to be dotted round Africa. Bloated bureaucrats will plan their next cavalcade of the latest Merc models and umpteen more overpaid aid workers will dash from one meeting to another in the gas-guzzling 4X4's ( No offroading for them and one really does not want to think of the effect on global warming)

All this is the result of aid. It is no different if you are giving it to an individual or a country; provide doles to a person long enough and he will rely on them;it will lock him and his family into a cycle of poverty in which there is little chance of escape.

So if you're really concerned about Africa then stick two fingers up to Chancelor Brown, Geldof,and his rich cronies and spend your money wisely, like on a good bag of Accy air.

Gayle · 04-07-2005, 16:59

Live 8 was nothing to do with raising money for aid. I thought it was a free concert - someone correct me if I'm wrong.

So Tealeaf your whole point is moot.

The concert was not to line anyone's pockets, it was to stick two fingers up at Brown, Blair and Bush and to say 'sort it out'. And I think it was mission accomplished.

John_Timmins · 04-07-2005, 17:01

except where did the money go which they charged you for texting in for the tickets???

Acrylic-bob · 04-07-2005, 18:06

It is estimated by the World Bank, among others, that in the last four decades aid amounting to One Trillion Dollars has been poured into Africa. That is one thousand, thousand, million dollars. A staggering and unimaginable sum. written down it looks like this...

$ 1, 000, 000, 000, 000. 00

The bank also admits that as much as 70% of this stupendous amount has been spent by the aid agencies and Non governmental organisations on administration, salaries, and "jobs for the boys". The bank also estimates that an unknown but sizeable portion has also been siphoned off by corrupt government officials.

A large-ish chunk of that one trillion dollars was your money that you earned by your hard work and which you were required to pay to the Inland Revenue in Taxes.

Do you really need any further demonstration that AID does not work, that it creates a dependency culture, and that it fosters corruption, crime and increasing poverty?

There was talk on the Jeremy Vine Show on R2 this afternoon that people in the UK should now be prepared to accept increases in taxation to pay for further western largesse where Africa is concerned - after all, where else do you think the money is going to come from?

apest1 · 04-07-2005, 18:23

What list !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WillowTheWhisp · 04-07-2005, 18:32

I was going to respond earlier to the "blanket bombing" idea and the happy thought that some of it reaches the people it intends to help. (I got waylaid with Mimi nailing something to the wall.)

Obviously some of the past aid reached someone as Bob Geldof showed us the young woman who would have starved to death as a baby but for Band Aid/Live Aid.

Unfortunately for every little that does reach the intended target more reaches the corrupt leaders who cause the problems in their countries which lead to poverty and although on the surface it may appear that we have helped the people we have actually done them more harm than good.

I think perhaps Sir Bob may have realised this to some extent and so we now have Live 8 designed to raise awareness rather than money. Yes he wanted third world debt to be cancelled and that I think was agreed before the concerts let alone before the G8 summit but that itself will not solve the problems.

Africa is a continent of many countries whose borders were created by foreigners who had no understanding of the tribal culture of the people. When the countries were run by the colonisers things ran smoothly but when they pulled out and "gave Africa its freedom" the real problems started.

If Live 8 has succeeded in something perhaps it is that more people are now aware if some of the underlying causes of the situations. And as Gayle so rightly said, before this there were many people who didn't even know there was a meeting in Edinburgh on Wednesday. In fact there were many people who hadn't a clue what G8 is. Perhaps they do now.