Magistrate Reprimanded

cashman · 09-01-2008, 01:41

a magistrate has been reprimanded for refusing to try the case of a muslim woman who was charged with criminal damage,because she refused to remove her veil.whilst i acknowledge people wear em for religious reasons, in certain instances this cannot be acceptable to me. court appearences,passport control,etc being some of them, to me the lunatics have taken over the asylum,P.C. gone mad, whats your thoughts on this?

Neil · 09-01-2008, 09:09

How are you supposed to know if she was the right person if you can't see her?
Would I be allowed to wear a crash helmet in court?

blazey · 09-01-2008, 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

How are you supposed to know if she was the right person if you can't see her?
Would I be allowed to wear a crash helmet in court?

I voted yes. The veil is simply to cover the face from male view and a woman employee of the court can easily check in private that is indeed the correct person.

As for crash helmets, if it was for a religious reason ad you could prove the religion did indeed exist then they can't treat you any differently. I doubt they'd take your religion as seriously though unless it was reasonable. The veil in theory does have a decent reason behind it, and although its a very odd thing to do in our eyes its very normal and important in the muslim faith and I dont see why we shouldn't respect that, as long as all precautions are taken to ensure it is the right person and all that then whats the problem?

In airports it should be the same, women check in a private booth or something, if they refuse this then they should be refused to fly.

davo69 · 09-01-2008, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazey

I voted yes. The veil is simply to cover the face from male view and a woman employee of the court can easily check in private that is indeed the correct person.

As for crash helmets, if it was for a religious reason ad you could prove the religion did indeed exist then they can't treat you any differently. I doubt they'd take your religion as seriously though unless it was reasonable. The veil in theory does have a decent reason behind it, and although its a very odd thing to do in our eyes its very normal and important in the muslim faith and I dont see why we shouldn't respect that, as long as all precautions are taken to ensure it is the right person and all that then whats the problem?

In airports it should be the same, women check in a private booth or something, if they refuse this then they should be refused to fly.

can you please show me were in there bible says they should cover their face been looking cant find it .

blazey · 09-01-2008, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by davo69

can you please show me were in there bible says they should cover their face been looking cant find it .

I dont have a Qu'ran in front of me i'm afraid, but I have many muslim female friends who have explained the reasoning behind it. Not all custom and tradition is written into the bible, just like catholic women used to have veils over their heads in church. Nothing about it in the catholic bible as far as I've ever seen yet it was done.

Who's place is it to criticise another cultures beliefs? Dont we whinge when other cultures alledgedly criticise our christmas and say we cant have 'christmas lights' and all that rubbish? I've never met a muslim who's agreed with that, yet i think its a disgrace how many people simply just dont want them to wear it because they cant think of a better solution, IF there is even a problem to be solved.

panther · 09-01-2008, 11:51

my fella used to work for a coach firm and once took a load of muslim women and kids on a day trip, their husbands waved them off and as soon as they left all the women took of their veils!

he said they had a right laugh, completely different people they were, but as soon as they got home and hubbies where waiting they put em back on

wonder why it didnt matter then?

Bonnyboy · 09-01-2008, 11:51

Bad judgement on the part of the Magistrate. He didn’t follow judicial procedures, so for that he got a bit of a ticking off.

However I would say that the guidelines and procedures need to be altered. In times of heightened security it just does not sit easy with me that we can have people wander our streets, enter our public buildings, freely access our transport system and such, all in a faceless manner. The niqab/burqa may well have religious roots but they have also been used to conceal the identity when committing a crime.

BBC - Robbers in Burqas raid gem store

The veils need to go in my opinion. Therefore I voted No.

davo69 · 09-01-2008, 11:55

its not apart of there religion.why does my son get asked to take is cap off going into a pub why when he goes in lots of shops does he get told to take his huddy down .if its is choice to were one .yet i think its a disgrace how many people simply just dont want them to wear it because they cant think of a better solution, IF there is even a problem to be solved.

blazey · 09-01-2008, 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonnyboy

Bad judgement on the part of the Magistrate. He didn’t follow judicial procedures, so for that he got a bit of a ticking off.

However I would say that the guidelines and procedures need to be altered. In times of heightened security it just does not sit easy with me that we can have people wander our streets, enter our public buildings, freely access our transport system and such, all in a faceless manner. The niqab/burqa may well have religious roots but they have also been used to conceal the identity when committing a crime.

BBC - Robbers in Burqas raid gem store

The veils need to go in my opinion. Therefore I voted No.

Balaclavas have also been used in many a crime, how would we feel if we were unable to wear them by law? Would be a bit odd I think and they dont even have any sort of religious or tradition linked to them. They sell weird balaclavas here on campus, rather odd. Bit scary

very bright colours aswell, much more offensive to the eye than any veil the muslim faith can think up

blazey · 09-01-2008, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by davo69

its not apart of there religion.why does my son get asked to take is cap off going into a pub why when he goes in lots of shops does he get told to take his huddy down .if its is choice to were one .yet i think its a disgrace how many people simply just dont want them to wear it because they cant think of a better solution, IF there is even a problem to be solved.

Wearing a cap/hat indoors is just rude though isn't it? Where as if a man walked in wearing a turban, or a jewish man wearing his little disc-like hat (dont know the correct term) it'd be silly to ask him to remove it. Somethings are just like that I think, I didn't get taught anything like differentiating between types of headgear, I kind of just know between what you shouldn't wear indoors and which ones you would make exceptions for.

If I have to tolerate fat people then surely you can tolerate a veil!

Bonnyboy · 09-01-2008, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazey

Balaclavas have also been used in many a crime, how would we feel if we were unable to wear them by law? Would be a bit odd I think and they dont even have any sort of religious or tradition linked to them. They sell weird balaclavas here on campus, rather odd. Bit scary

very bright colours aswell, much more offensive to the eye than any veil the muslim faith can think up

Of course balaclavas have been used to commit crimes, crash helmets too. I doubt you would get away with sitting before a Magistrate with either of those on.

lancsdave · 09-01-2008, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by blazey

Who's place is it to criticise another cultures beliefs?

So basically you are saying that we should be able to go and live in any country in the way the way we want according to our culture ?

blazey · 09-01-2008, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancsdave

So basically you are saying that we should be able to go and live in any country in the way the way we want according to our culture ?

I think it should work both ways, and I know it doesn't, but I think we would also like to pride ourselves on being more civilised than some of our immigrants native countries.

I think for example that it is wrong that we cant wear our own clothes in places like saudi arabia and, particularly from a female perspective, have to be accompanied by a man everywhere. I cant make an impact on a foreign country though, my opinion doesnt count. Fortunatly we live in a democratic state that at least claims to allow us freedom of expression and I think that if we want to be true to human rights then they should all count for everyone, and personally I think forcing them to not wear the veil would breach Article 9 of the human rights act, and thats not fair unless there is no way to provide a secure society without doing that, and I think there could be ways of doing so without such radical measures. Just a matter of opinion and I'm sure I'm not the only person in the country against it otherwise it would have happened already.

blazey · 09-01-2008, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by davo69

what a horrible statement some fat people are not fat because of choice you hartless bitch wereing a vail is

SOME fat people are fat because they cant help it, SOME veil wearers are forced to by their husbands. I have learnt to tolerate so you should tolerate too and watch your mouth on a family friendly forum.

Do people forget that england has laws protecting women that have husbands like that here? Should they disobey their husbands and get taken back to the country they came from where no doubt women are meaningless and have no laws protecting them?

MikeSz · 09-01-2008, 12:22

For me this is a largely irresolvable issue as the question centres on establishing how far expression of religion can permeate through a person's everyday interactions with society as a whole in a multicultural society. There are two extreme views, neither necessarily good 1) That people should be entitled to express religious beliefs however and wherever they like (though this is usually qualified by the caveat that it only goes as far as the law or acceptable behaviour is permitted - and there lies your problem) 2) That religion is personal and should not be brought into public life at all. The problem with this is that it would alienate a majority of people to some degree.

In the vast majority of cases a degree of common sense and tact will triumph, enable state institutions to carry out their function and alleviate any offence caused to those who have to interact with them.