Minimum wage in Prison?! - Page 4

WillowTheWhisp · 26-02-2007, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

If the prisoners don't get to keep any of the money, why would they work? Seems to me that getting prisoners used to working, and used to being able to get some limited range of items as the result of work, is an important step in attempting to modify their behavior.

I'm not saying they shouldn't keep any of the money - but why should they keep it all and get free board and lodgings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

If that's the way you feel, then why have you not opted for prison? If what you said above is true, wouldn't that be the rational choice? After all, there are any number of ways you could manage to get "inside!"

I'm not planning on breaking the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyfr

I knew they didn't get paid minimum wage.. im glad Mancie researched it so I didn't have to

Ah but the ones who work for companies outside of the prison do get the minimum wage at least - and yet they have no bills to pay so they are financially better off than their innocent workmates which just makes no sense.

There is a the suggestion being put forth that they should only keep a part of the wage and the rest should go into some sort of victim compensation fund. That seems only fair to me when they don't have any living expenses.

WillowTheWhisp · 26-02-2007, 16:49

I've just been having a google, in between ironing shirts. Those working 'under prison rules' were exempt from the Minimum wage in 1999. Mind you that was 8 years ago. A lot can happen in 8 years. Can anyone clarify what 'prison rules' means? Does that mean all prisoners or just certain ones?

I wish they would repeat the name of the person interviewed in the mornings more slowly because I didn't catch it and I'd have like to be able to look him up. He seemed to think that they were covered by the minimum wage when John Humphries sounded astonished at the idea.

Billcat · 26-02-2007, 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I'm not saying they shouldn't keep any of the money - but why should they keep it all and get free board and lodgings?

But there are a number of folks here who are suggesting that the prisoners should keep none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I'm not planning on breaking the law.

Nor am I. I know that I will not find "cushy" conditions in prison. Quite the opposite, in fact.

BUT - If conditions in prision, as some have claimed, are so much better on the inside, it would be irrational not to seek the better conditions. So, why are you not trying to take advantage? Why aren't most people?

After all, there are any number of ways to break the law where, in essence, all you do is inconvenience someone else. For example, make a habit of stealing cars (without damaging them, of course) and drive them to a place where they are certain to be ticketed or towed, leaving some obvious clues in the vehicle as to who should get credit for this dastardly act. You could even leave a note, so that the owner would know where to find the vehicle.

Why aren't most people taking advantage of the better "cushy" conditions that some claim they would find in jail? Perhaps those "some" who make such claims aren't truly convinced that they are presenting an accurate picture?

Billcat · 26-02-2007, 17:54

Did a bit of homework. Appears that only those prisoners who are working in the community are entitled to the minumum wage. See this link (2005 info):
http://www.ilpa.org.uk/briefings/IAN2005BriefNC2Rep.doc
also
http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/PS...soners_pay.doc

There is an emphasis on purposeful activity, which is certainly something I would support. Minimum pay for in-prision work is GBP 4/week. Not a lot!

Frankly, I believe that any restitution to victims should be set by the judge at sentencing or, alternatively, through civil proceedings.

In any case, enjoy the links. Much better to work with the facts at hand!

LancYorkYankee · 26-02-2007, 18:08

Okay, late to this discussion but felt I'd give my opinion anyway. Id like the prisoners to take more responsibility for the costs they incur. Why not charge them for their "basic" needs being met? I'd MAYBE even go so far as to charge relatives for imprisonment costs.

This all being a possible even greater deterrent. However, I also realize many of these people wouldn't give a hoot about their mums, dads, spouses, grown children, having to pay.

This type of thing may work for younger, non-violent criminals. More importantly, it may help/make/force these negleckful parents, who let their kids run rampant, vandalising, fighting, stealing, etc., to have more reason to keep the kids disciplined.

I'm just trying to think a bit outside the box here. Also trying to think of ways to stifle all those little hoodlum dregs of society!

Brian

Mancie · 26-02-2007, 18:17

I agree that it just does not seem right that a person working from an open prison goes "home" at the end of the day to live free of charge without having to pay for board and lodgings.

There is also the scenario were a convicted criminal may get a suspended or deferred prison sentence... in thoery they have recieved a prison sentence..would anyone say they should not get the minimum wage while still working?
This topic is not as clear cut as to simply say a percentage of wages earned should be taken... seems it would take a great deal of looking into the legal aspects, and were any deductions made, to whom or were the money taken would go.

WillowTheWhisp · 26-02-2007, 18:17

Quote:

Those in open prisons who go out to work in the community get paid the national minimum wage for work they do

That's from one of your links Billcat.

So, a prisoner who has no daily living expenses gets the same wage as the guy next to him who does the same work but has to pay rent/mortgage, pay council tax and utility bills. He can save all his earnings whilst the co-worker may be struggling to make ends meet. Maybe that co-worker would get to thinking twice about whether crime pays or not. I still think they should be deducted for their keep and the money put into some victim compensation fund - maybe less for the taxpayer to have to contribute to then.

WillowTheWhisp · 26-02-2007, 18:20

A suspended sentence is different because they are not getting free lodgings and food in prison. They are still, to all intents and purposes, free and have the same bills as everybody else.

jambutty · 26-02-2007, 18:25

Strange! I always thought that a suspended sentence meant they were hanged.

Sorry! I’ll go an kneel on some dried peas in a corner and mutter to myself, “Don’t be facetious.”

garinda · 26-02-2007, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billcat

If the prisoners don't get to keep any of the money, why would they work?

To have milk and sugar to put on their gruel.

Mancie · 26-02-2007, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

A suspended sentence is different because they are not getting free lodgings and food in prison. They are still, to all intents and purposes, free and have the same bills as everybody else.

Of course Willow.... I was meaning to say that to bring in any new laws to make deductions from wages of offenders would I expect be a legal minefield...if the law says prisoners can "out work" in the private sector then they have the same rights as any other employee whether we like it or not.

Maybe a way round this would be to for the judge to impose a "fine" at the same time as a custodial sentance is given, such a fine could be enforced if the prisoner earns a certian amount of money when working outside prison... but then again I suppose this would deter some prisoners from taking up outside employment.

WillowTheWhisp · 26-02-2007, 18:46

I think that's the sort of thing they're discussing at the mo.

jambutty · 26-02-2007, 18:48

Prisons could have work indoors.

A laundry to launder hospital linens perhaps?

Sorting recyclable stuff from the throw away stuff?

A market garden to grow the prison’s own vegetables maybe?

Billcat · 26-02-2007, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by LancYorkYankee

I'd MAYBE even go so far as to charge relatives for imprisonment costs.

Why should the relatives pay? Suddenly, we're choosing to punish the innoncent?

I know what my response would be - if society wants to lock them up, then society must pay for it. I'll pay my share, as part of my taxes, but that's an end to it. To ensure an equitable justice system, society needs to balance the cost of incarceration versus the cost of not imprisoning so many folks. Frankly, if it did not cost the public to run prisons, it could lead to any number of interesting abuses. For instance, under your proposal, wouldn't relatives be financially far better off helping a criminal hide out or escape?

Frankly, running a justice system, including prisons, is part of the cost of running a civilized society. If we don't pay the costs of maintaining civilization, we have no right to expect it to continue for long. From my point of view, the benefits far outweigh the costs I pay.

Mancie · 26-02-2007, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jambutty

Prisons could have work indoors.

A laundry to launder hospital linens perhaps?

Sorting recyclable stuff from the throw away stuff?

A market garden to grow the prison’s own vegetables maybe?

Makes sense jambutty... the old sewing mailbags type of work is still done in some prisons.. and some work along the lines of what you propose is done.
It may sound strange but in most prisons the "unemployment rate" if you can call it that, is up in the 80% 's.... having a "job" on the inside of prison is actually highly valued by most prisoners... having work cleaning/cooking or in the workshop gets a prisoner out of the cells and maybe £2-£4 a week on top of an allowance of around £6 per week that all prisoners get.