morallity and employment

churchfcrules · 16-09-2012, 10:09

i was reading on another thread regarding morallity and employment

i decided to start a new thread rather than hijack that one

if you where on benefits, and they told you you had to take a job, that was against your moral/religous beliefs, would this be acceptable?

would those beliefs, outweigh those of "claiming benefits", some have no moral problem having state handouts, whilst others dont see it as a right and do have.

at what stage do your morals have to take a"back seat", or would they never and irrelevant of the consequence you would always take the moral high ground ?

Restless · 16-09-2012, 10:24

I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't draw my morals from religious scripture either. So I guess the answer would be. Yes I would.

But putting myself into the mind of say a Muslim hving to work at Slingers. If I was that person. I think it would be justifiable to say no

But what jobs out there are immoral for someone outside of religion. Working as bartender in a stripclub?
Being a guitar tech for the dude from take that?(highly immoral haha)

how many potentially immorral jobs are out there?

churchfcrules · 16-09-2012, 10:27

Vegan in a shoe shop?

Margaret Pilkington · 16-09-2012, 10:29

During my working life, I did things that some would say were against morality(I could have invoked a conscience clause, but I didn't)......how did I square them with my conscience? I felt that if I didn't do them then someone else would....and perhaps do it with much less care and lives could be put at risk.
I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Margaret Pilkington · 16-09-2012, 10:30

Rob...while you aren't religious...most morals stem from religion....and are sort of ingrained on us as children.

Less · 16-09-2012, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Rob...while you aren't religious...most morals stem from religion....and are sort of ingrained on us as children.

Do they? or where they just hijacked by religions to make them (the religions) work better?

I brought my children up without any religious guidance, but they do have morals.

churchfcrules · 16-09-2012, 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

......how did I square them with my conscience? I felt that if I didn't do them then someone else would......

but there is the arguement that through you compliance it perpetuates the "thing" that you feel you have to do.

if everyone took a moral stance, then there wouldnt be anyone else to do it

4 vegetarians, starving to death, have a pig.........

Less · 16-09-2012, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

4 vegetarians, starving to death, have a pig.........

4 omnivores starving to death, have a vegetarian.........

Sunflower49 · 16-09-2012, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

i was reading on another thread regarding morallity and employment

i decided to start a new thread rather than hijack that one

if you where on benefits, and they told you you had to take a job, that was against your moral/religous beliefs, would this be acceptable?

would those beliefs, outweigh those of "claiming benefits", some have no moral problem having state handouts, whilst others dont see it as a right and do have.

at what stage do your morals have to take a"back seat", or would they never and irrelevant of the consequence you would always take the moral high ground ?

I guess it would depend on how desperate I was for money (that is benefits not being stopped, or an actual wage).
I have been unemployed before, when I was not up to doing my usual job. I didn't claim benefits-it might be seen as a moral highground why not-I just thought I am able bodied and I am not totally skint, so I am not sponging off the government

Quote:

Originally Posted by churchfcrules

Vegan in a shoe shop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Restless

I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't draw my morals from religious scripture either. So I guess the answer would be. Yes I would.

But putting myself into the mind of say a Muslim hving to work at Slingers. If I was that person. I think it would be justifiable to say no

But what jobs out there are immoral for someone outside of religion. Working as bartender in a stripclub?
Being a guitar tech for the dude from take that?(highly immoral haha)

how many potentially immorral jobs are out there?

Lol!
There are loads.Well -I am a vegan, I have been vegan 12 years and not eaten meat since I was 11. If I was put to work in a slaughterhouse, butchers, McDonalds, leather shop, fish market, any shop that encourages cosmetic testing (such as certain make up stalls or working for a corporation such as unilever) then I would likely appear in the Daily Mail shortly following.

Other examples I can think of, anybody who is precious about sex-working in any part of adult entertainment.
Pacifists working for anything to do with the army or other armed forces?

There are more absolute personal ones as well-we were speaking about the H'sborough disaster on another thread-am pretty sure none of the victims would be happy working in a shop that sold The S*n, or working for the same-just an example. People whose relatives have died from lung cancer, working in a cigarette factory? Working in an off license if you're strictly teetotal.
There's a line between morality and pride. Not taking a job you are over-qualified for is the latter!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Rob...while you aren't religious...most morals stem from religion....and are sort of ingrained on us as children.

Lol by that definition I have no morals!

Actually though, I often say veganism IS a religion as by the sociological definition. It's a set of beliefs and values that people live their life by, collectively or otherwise. It amounts to the same. It was a personal decision though.

Good question/good thread!

Less · 16-09-2012, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarmouse0707

so I am not sponging off the government

I am unemployed, I do claim, I am not sponging off the Government, I have contributed all my life I'm taking out a little of what I've put in.
If you are entitled to claim the system is there to allow you to claim, it is those that have a very narrow outlook that consider all the unemployed to be spongers and scroungers because it makes them feel better having someone to blame, this, I consider to be morally wrong.

mobertol · 16-09-2012, 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarmouse0707

I guess it would depend on how desperate I was for money (that is benefits not being stopped, or an actual wage).
I have been unemployed before, when I was not up to doing my usual job. I didn't claim benefits-it might be seen as a moral highground why not-I just thought I am able bodied and I am not totally skint, so I am not sponging off the government

Lol!
There are loads.Well -I am a vegan, I have been vegan 12 years and not eaten meat since I was 11. If I was put to work in a slaughterhouse, butchers, McDonalds, leather shop, fish market, any shop that encourages cosmetic testing (such as certain make up stalls or working for a corporation such as unilever) then I would likely appear in the Daily Mail shortly following.

Other examples I can think of, anybody who is precious about sex-working in any part of adult entertainment.
Pacifists working for anything to do with the army or other armed forces?

There are more absolute personal ones as well-we were speaking about the H'sborough disaster on another thread-am pretty sure none of the victims would be happy working in a shop that sold The S*n, or working for the same-just an example. People whose relatives have died from lung cancer, working in a cigarette factory? Working in an off license if you're strictly teetotal.
There's a line between morality and pride. Not taking a job you are over-qualified for is the latter!

Lol by that definition I have no morals!

Actually though, I often say veganism IS a religion as by the sociological definition. It's a set of beliefs and values that people live their life by, collectively or otherwise. It amounts to the same. It was a personal decision though.

Good question/good thread!

My son's girlfriend, Martina, was a vegetarian and tried to be a vegan for some time -in the end she had a load of problems with allergies and her health was suffering (she's intollerant to zinc anmong other things) so her doctor advised her to return to a "normal" diet without many things which contain zinc - she will now eat lean meat but nothing on the bone or with fat -sort of squeamish I suppose. Her reason for becoming vegetarian was a moral one against the battery rearing of animals for food and connected mis-treatment.

You say you are a vegan - was it a conscious choice or just something that happened over time. Do you wear leather, do you eat cheese made with rennet or just the veggie sort, will you drink milk, I suppose you won't eat eggs. Not trying to be polemic just to understand how you can follow through such a difficult choice of lifestyle...

Forgot to mention I have a friend who gave up eating meat as a student 'cos she coulnt afford it and has never eaten it since (30yrs) -that's what I mean by it just happenng over time...

susie123 · 16-09-2012, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarmouse0707

you're strictly teetotal.
There's a line between morality and pride. Not taking a job you are over-qualified for is the latter!

The hard part in that case is getting past the interview. My partner's been for jobs where he's known a lot more than the interviewer, through experience as he has no qualifications at all. He would gladly have taken such a job but usually got nowhere once the interviewer realised that my other half knew what he was talking about and posed a threat to the interviewer if he had got the job.

Less · 16-09-2012, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarmouse0707

There's a line between morality and pride. Not taking a job you are over-qualified for is the latter!

Not pride, perhaps it's morally wrong to take a job you are over-qualified for?

You take this job and someone less qualified but with a better mindset to be able to do the job is thrown onto the dole instead of you.

susie123 · 16-09-2012, 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Less

I am unemployed, I do claim, I am not sponging off the Government, I have contributed all my life I'm taking out a little of what I've put in.
If you are entitled to claim the system is there to allow you to claim, it is those that have a very narrow outlook that consider all the unemployed to be spongers and scroungers because it makes them feel better having someone to blame, this, I consider to be morally wrong.

Well said Less, you are in the position that my partner has been in several times during his working life . You are entitled to the measly sum doled out by the government, it's not sponging. Having read your recent blog it is all too easy for employers to take advantage of folks in your situation.

I do find it difficult however to condone the attitude of those who, having been out of work for whatever reason for x number of years, keep on producing children for the state to support and then demand a bigger house for the family while they all sit at home watching sky tv with a fag in their hand. Yes I now that's a stereotype but I guess the benefits system has made this a lifestyle choice for them while making it hard for singles and couples who want to work.

Sunflower49 · 16-09-2012, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Less

I am unemployed, I do claim, I am not sponging off the Government, I have contributed all my life I'm taking out a little of what I've put in.
If you are entitled to claim the system is there to allow you to claim, it is those that have a very narrow outlook that consider all the unemployed to be spongers and scroungers because it makes them feel better having someone to blame, this, I consider to be morally wrong.

I worded it wrong-if *I* had been on the dole, when I could walk into a job VERY easily, and I had money and means of getting money if I needed some, *I* would have been sponging.

Many others also do stay on the dole when they could work and they do not make an effort to, preferring to not work. However I truly don't think everybody on the dole is sponging, apologies if it sounded like that.

Benefits are there for those who need them, and when I was unemployed, I didn't need them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobertol

My son's girlfriend, Martina, was a vegetarian and tried to be a vegan for some time -in the end she had a load of problems with allergies and her health was suffering (she's intollerant to zinc anmong other things) so her doctor advised her to return to a "normal" diet without many things which contain zinc - she will now eat lean meat but nothing on the bone or with fat -sort of squeamish I suppose. Her reason for becoming vegetarian was a moral one against the battery rearing of animals for food and connected mis-treatment.

You say you are a vegan - was it a conscious choice or just something that happened over time. Do you wear leather, do you eat cheese made with rennet or just the veggie sort, will you drink milk, I suppose you won't eat eggs. Not trying to be polemic just to understand how you can follow through such a difficult choice of lifestyle...
Forgot to mention I have a friend who gave up eating meat as a student 'cos she coulnt afford it and has never eaten it since (30yrs) -that's what I mean by it just happenng over time...

If you don't look after your diet (even if you do eat animal products) you can end up deficient. It's easy to not be deficient in anything on a vegan diet, but you do have to know what you are doing particularly when your body is used to certain things that it is no longer getting from the same sources. It was a conscious choice, due to morality. The meat industry=the dairy industry. Animals die at the hands of both and I am an animal lover hence my decision.

No, vegans don't wear leather, use dairy or consume eggs.

You aren't being polemic, however you are making assumptions.

'Such a difficult...'
It isn't difficult for me, at all. It's second nature.

[

Quote:

Originally Posted by Less

Not pride, perhaps it's morally wrong to take a job you are over-qualified for?

You take this job and someone less qualified but with a better mindset to be able to do the job is thrown onto the dole instead of you.

Yes I'd say that's a possible scenario..

Quote:

Originally Posted by susie123

Well said Less, you are in the position that my partner has been in several times during his working life . You are entitled to the measly sum doled out by the government, it's not sponging. Having read your recent blog it is all too easy for employers to take advantage of folks in your situation.

I do find it difficult however to condone the attitude of those who, having been out of work for whatever reason for x number of years, keep on producing children for the state to support and then demand a bigger house for the family while they all sit at home watching sky tv with a fag in their hand. Yes I now that's a stereotype but I guess the benefits system has made this a lifestyle choice for them while making it hard for singles and couples who want to work.

^^That also drives me nuts. I know the 'fat cats' generally are as much to blame as the type of people who behave like that,and I won't deny it probably is the fact I am more exposed to the latter, that makes me so angry about it. Then again, how many people would go to work, to get less money , than they get for NOT going to work? I think that happens often with the current benefits system.