Muslim Veils

[BERNADETTE]

Just remembered I was taking my eldest grandaughter to Nursery and she is fourteen shortly and we passed a lady dressed in the full veil and my grandaughter asked me why "that lady was hiding"? So seems to me it is within the last ten years it has become the norm or why would a child of four comment?

[garinda]

It's a golbal fashion, in the sense that it isn't required. The Qur'an only makes mention of modesty in dress, but that applies equally to men, as well as to women.

Growing up in the seventies I didn't see any Muslim women wearing a burqas in this area, just women in brightly coloured saris, with their heads partly covered.

I recently listened to a radio programme which featured a female Egyptian professor. She said that until the early seventies Egypt, mainly the cities of Cairo and Alexandra, were pretty much like other cities on the other side of the Med. Women happily wore western clothes. Now 90% of women wear the hijab at least, and risk being attacked if not 'properly' attired in public.

Mind you I'm not feeling too kindly tonight to man's interpretation of the teaching of the world's holy men.

I've just sat through a two hour documentary about the 100,000 victims, that have come forward so far, of Catholic priests in the U.S.A.

The way this was covered up, often resulting in more children being raped and abused because the priests were just moved to other parishes, was sickening.

Ex-President Bush gave in to Vatican demands that the present Pope, who knew and did nothing positive about the asbuse, and granted him immunity from prosecution in the States. The Church in the U.S. has so far paid out 1 billion dollars to victims...after many a lengthy battle.

Much of the abuse was just ignored, especially if the victims raped were girls (even as young as nine months), because that was put down to 'natural curiosity'. They interviewed one of the priest, happily living freely back in Ireland, and being paid a pension by the church. His total lack of understanding of what he'd put these children and their families through made me sick.

Disillusioned with organised religion rant over now...back to the thread.

The Qur'an doesn't demand that women wear a burkha, but you could also say neither did Jesus make mention of Christian priests being celibate.

[accyman]

religion is just a form of control , some are more extreem than others so any rule made by a religion is often on a bad start with me anyway

christian faith is just as bad

the bible is supposed to say homosexuality is forbidden but there are gay priests and vicars etc

if you dont agree with the religion dont be part of it and shut up moaning then go find a religion that does accept you for who and what you are

then as garinda says this filthy thing called religion is so powerfull and feared by some people that raping of children is overlooked and god knows what other sordid affairs

how anyone can take moral guidence from these morons is beyond my comprehension , following rules set out by the pope is about as ethecal as taking advice on how to treat a lady on a first date from jack the ripper

my rant over now back to veils lol

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by garinda

It's a golbal fashion, in the sense that it isn't required. The Qur'an only makes mention of modesty in dress, but that applies equally to men, as well as to women.

Growing up in the seventies I didn't see any Muslim women wearing a burqas in this area, just women in brightly coloured saris, with their heads partly covered.

I recently listened to a radio programme which featured a female Egyptian professor. She said that until the early seventies Egypt, mainly the cities of Cairo and Alexandra, were pretty much like other cities on the other side of the Med. Women happily wore western clothes. Now 90% of women wear the hijab at least, and risk being attacked if not 'properly' attired in public.

Mind you I'm not feeling too kindly tonight to man's interpretation of the teaching of the world's holy men.

I've just sat through a two hour documentary about the 100,000 victims, that have come forward so far, of Catholic priests in the U.S.A.

The way this was covered up, often resulting in more children being raped and abused because the priests were just moved to other parishes, was sickening.

Ex-President Bush gave in to Vatican demands that the present Pope, who knew and did nothing positive about the asbuse, and granted him immunity from prosecution in the States. The Church in the U.S. has so far paid out 1 billion dollars to victims...after many a lengthy battle.

Much of the abuse was just ignored, especially if the victims raped were girls (even as young as nine months), because that was put down to 'natural curiosity'. They interviewed one of the priest, happily living freely back in Ireland, and being paid a pension by the church. His total lack of understanding of what he'd put these children and their families through made me sick.

Disillusioned with organised religion rant over now...back to the thread.

The Qur'an doesn't demand that women wear a burkha, but you could also say neither did Jesus make mention of Christian priests being celibate.

couple of points I want to make about this post ...

re. the Burqa, anyone who has done any travel to Saudi Arabia will tell you the same story , as soon as the seat belt sign goes out on planes leaving Jeddah and Riyhad there is a procession of 'burqas' into the toilets and 5 minutes later a procession of some of the most beautiful women you will ever see return to their seats, the opposite happens on flights into the Kingdom ....babes into the toilets, Burqas out .........one thing to note ..all these women have male companions , husbands /fathers/brothers etc. who seem to have no problem with the change.
All these folks subscribe to and live by the rules of Wahabi Islam when at home but it goes out of the window when they travel. Hypocrisy or not ... not for me to say.

Re, the Catholic Church and "abuse" , the numbers being bandied about are just staggering/unrealistic , I'm just curious about a couple of points,
#1 , In cities like Boston , Philidelpia and NYC all cities with high Catholic populations and a high Catholic profile in Law enforcement (Irish cops and DAs) to know why nothing came out earlier since I'm sure lots of cops and DAs are ex alter boys .
Same applies to places like Dublin, sure most of the present day 'Garda' were alter boys at one time
# 2 (in the US at least) most of the lawyers who have been "Ambulance chasing" the Church for multi million dollar settlements all have names ending in 'stein' 'berg' and 'wietz'. not saying there is a conspricy but something smells

[emzy]

Originally Posted by BERNADETTE

Just remembered I was taking my eldest grandaughter to Nursery and she is fourteen shortly and we passed a lady dressed in the full veil and my grandaughter asked me why "that lady was hiding"? So seems to me it is within the last ten years it has become the norm or why would a child of four comment?

I got that from one of the boys a few months ago in asda, he pointed at someone wearing a veil and said "mummy, lady hiding" I did agree with him and say yes, lady hiding lol, didnt really know what else to say, 2 yr old is a bit young do be going into the discussion of muslim veils i think, they dont even know about religion yet lol

[panther]

Originally Posted by accyman

it was ok to have her vagina seen but not her mush lol

LMAO......thanks accyman that made me giggle!!

[Eric]

This crossed my mind: I wonder what the sexually twisted freaks in the Taliban think when they see our women; free, equal, well educated, well armed, fighting along side our men, and often leading them, flying our military aircraft, serving on our warships (at least one of our ships, HMCS Halifax, is commanded by a woman, Cmdr. Josee Kurtz) ... it must really pee them right off.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Eric

This crossed my mind: I wonder what the sexually twisted freaks in the Taliban think when they see our women; free, equal, well educated, well armed, fighting along side our men, and often leading them, flying our military aircraft, serving on our warships (at least one of our ships, HMCS Halifax, is commanded by a woman, Cmdr. Josee Kurtz) ... it must really pee them right off.

And long be that the case Eric, in any civilised society Women command the same respect as men, that's the way it should be, but these ignorant religious zealots think different, I wonder why the Guardian never highlight this issue

[Mancie]

I was at speakers corner Hyde park in the mid 80's.. there was one Arab bloke with a few in tow speaking about western women and the way they dressed.. the bloke was bascilly saying that women wearing short skirts were asking to be raped and that muslim women would not be allowed to dress other than full body clothed... I spoke up and told the man he was insecure and was afraid of the notion that women can decide for themselves what they wear...I was soon verbally attacked ..(they were saying my northen accent meant I was not even English!.) ... I think some Muslim women do choose for themselves to wear veils..but at the same time the men of the Muslim faith are insecure about the thier women.

[Mancie]

Originally Posted by garinda

I've just sat through a two hour documentary about the 100,000 victims, that have come forward so far, of Catholic priests in the U.S.A.

I also watched that docu... the worse thing is that the Vatican would not even recognise the victims of abuse... these people are just "people".. they are not directly in touch with any God..I may believe in God but I don't believe in the Catholic Church nor any Church ... the Ten Commandments seem fair enough..but many regulations that have been added by priests and so called gurus amount to making people bow to an agenda.. they are the regulations of human beings..not any divine instructions... and these so called instuctions from Popes or Ayatollahs to suit thier own ends mean nothing.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Mancie

I also watched that docu... the worse thing is that the Vatican would not even recognise the victims of abuse... these people are just "people".. they are not directly in touch with any God..I may believe in God but I don't believe in the Catholic Church nor any Church ... the Ten Commandments seem fair enough..but many regulations that have been added by priests and so called gurus amount to making people bow to an agenda.. they are the regulations of human beings..not any divine instructions... and these so called instuctions from Popes or Ayatollahs to suit thier own ends mean nothing.

I'm a practising RC Mancie, and in someways you have a point, I'm not one of those people who thinks that everything that comes from the Vatican is right, especially in this day and age. I can't understand why the Vatican seem to condone abuse of this kind, its wrong in any language or culture. I also have a problem with the vatican's stance on contraception, I can see no point in bringing unwanted children into this world at the whim of people who make the rules but don't play the game. Maybe the answer to both these issues would be to allow married men to become priests, we are now in the 21st century, yet the catholic church remains in the dark ages, I think its time it moved with the times and the needs of a modern world

[emamum]

i'm rc as well and i agree with jaysay...

[garinda]

Originally Posted by jaysay

I'm a practising RC Mancie, and in someways you have a point, I'm not one of those people who thinks that everything that comes from the Vatican is right, especially in this day and age. I can't understand why the Vatican seem to condone abuse of this kind, its wrong in any language or culture. I also have a problem with the vatican's stance on contraception, I can see no point in bringing unwanted children into this world at the whim of people who make the rules but don't play the game. Maybe the answer to both these issues would be to allow married men to become priests, we are now in the 21st century, yet the catholic church remains in the dark ages, I think its time it moved with the times and the needs of a modern world

The film, or myself for that matter, wasn't having a go at Catholics, just the Catholic church as an organisation.

The victims and their families were Catholic after all, and many seemed doubly affected, for not only had their children been abused, but it was by someone they trusted, as God's representative on Earth.

In answer to Steeljack, yes the victims were helped by lawyers. Nearly as many as the church had to block and hinder any justice that was being sought.

If you ever get to see the film watch it. It's called 'Deliver Us From Evil'.

Sorry for the thread wander, though there is a tenuous link.

Just as there's no mention in the Qur'an of the need to wear a burqa, that's man's later interpretation, there's no mention that priests need to be single and celibate.

Until the fourth century A.D. priests, even Popes could marry, and many were. It was only because the church wanted the estates of priests after their deaths, rather than any heirs, that the rules were changed.

If priests were allow to marry, perhaps it wouldn't be quite as easy for the priesthood to be a cover for serial child abusers.

[den the menace]

a very good example of our open door policy is illustrated by a family of pakistani's in my street.................2 sons both sent "home" to pakistan and both return with a bride apiece. they have now produced son's, and will when they reach thier teens be sent back "home" again to bring 2 more brides to produce more kids, who no doubt will be sent back to bring another bride to produce more kids to send home etc etc etc.

you can see where this is leading to, but our political master's just dont get it/dont care, so when the time comes to vote you know who to vote for dont you?
dennis

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by garinda

The film, or myself for that matter, wasn't having a go at Catholics, just the Catholic church as an organisation.

The victims and their families were Catholic after all, and many seemed doubly affected, for not only had their children been abused, but it was by someone they trusted, as God's representative on Earth.

In answer to Steelback, yes the victims were helped by lawyers. Nearly as many as the church had to block and hinder any justice that was being sought.

If you ever get to see the film watch it. It's called 'Deliver Us From Evil'.

Sorry for the thread wander, though there is a tenuous link.

Just as there's no mention in the Qur'an of the need to wear a burqa, that's man's later interpretation, there's no mention that priests need to be single and celibate.

Until the fourth century A.D. priests, even Popes could marry, and many were. It was only because the church wanted the estates of priests after their deaths, rather than any heirs, that the rules were changed.

If priests were allow to marry, perhaps it wouldn't be quite as easy for the priesthood to be a cover for serial child abusers.

If the Catholic Church won't allowed married priests there maybe no church left in a few years, very few people are now taking holy orders there have been very few ordained in the salford dioceses of late. Even so I can't condone the church for trying to cover up abuse for any reason let alone to save face, and I will keep a look out for the film Rindi.