Nelson Mandela

[MargaretR]

For what it's worth - maybe true - conspiracy forums said he died a few months back, based on some of his relatives being seen undertaking some 'bereavement rituals'.

It is not incredible that the death was concealed and announcement delayed to suit 'a more suitable time' - it has provided publicity for a film premiere that Willie and his missus went to see this week, hasn't it? - and there may well be diplomatic reasons that we aren't aware of.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by cashman

By using that analogy, the IRA would also have been freedom fighters, Theres a big difference to me to fighting the system n those in power, to slaughtering the innocent.

Roger that Mr C... and he was S Africa's 1st black lawyer so he would know right from wrong better than most.
He and the ANC accepted $60 million from Suharto and around $10million from the Libyan despot to fund and mobilise their bombing campaigns.
Tellingly too Amnesty later refused to take up his case saying "They could not not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence"

[Boeing Guy]

Anybody remember Apartheid?
There is a lot of knocking Mandela and others for violence, even comparing him to dictators.

When you and your race are oppressed are you tend to have very little choice, if you do what the Jew's did in the 1930's you will be murdered by the millions.
The Black South Africans fought back against Apartheid, peaceful activism can only work for so long.

I am not condoning the actions the ANC and others took, merely recognizing that there was no other option for them.

The South African regime killed people who were dissidents, anyone who did not agree with them, Steve Biko may be the most recognized, but there were others.

Nelson Mandela may not have been perfect, but who is.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Anybody remember Apartheid?

Is South Africa a better place now?
Have the ANC done what they said they would do for the people?

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Anybody remember Apartheid?

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. BG

BUT

IMHO the ANC is corrupt to its core and just as racist as the National Party they replaced.
S Africa law dictates that white males must be placed at the bottom of the Hire Lists for government jobs as well as Hire Lists for non-government jobs. South African Airways on behest of the Government recently ran a job advert with the ending tag line "whites need not apply" Whites can’t get jobs in their native land because of the laws passed by Mandela's African National Congress.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Boeing Guy

Nelson Mandela may not have been perfect, but who is.

Not even God: "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn ... I am the Lord." And don't forget that Mandela shared the Peace Prize with F. W. de Klerk.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by Eric

And don't forget that Mandela shared the Peace Prize with F. W. de Klerk.

Or that Hitler loved his dogs and Eva Braun, not necessarily in that order I hasten to add.

[Boeing Guy]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

The apartheid regime was a crime against humanity; as illogical as it was cruel. BG

BUT

IMHO the ANC is corrupt to its core and just as racist as the National Party they replaced.
S Africa law dictates that white males must be placed at the bottom of the Hire Lists for government jobs as well as Hire Lists for non-government jobs. South African Airways on behest of the Government recently ran a job advert with the ending tag line "whites need not apply" Whites can’t get jobs in their native land because of the laws passed by Mandela's African National Congress.

Agreed, but is that the fault of one man?

There are a lot of issues in the whole of Africa, some of it I have been fortunate to see first hand.
We all have differing views on Nelson Mandela, but he was a man who stood up to injustice and oppression, were his methods right? where they just? not always, but the current state of affairs in South Africa cannot be attributed to him.

South Africa has one of the highest levels of Poverty in the world, there are 51 Million people in South Africa, 41 Million are Black, depending who you believe there 30-50% of the Black Adult population are Unemployed.

I don't for one second believe the ANC will make things better, Politicians will always look out for themselves.

Personally I have a lot of respect for Nelson Mandela, IMHO he was one of the defining world leaders of the 20th century.

[cashman]

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.

[DtheP47]

Originally Posted by cashman

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years?

A lot of good in later years eh? let’s see the proof on that Mr C
As President of a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, did he pour resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Did he heck as like, Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people
With the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighing heavily on the minds (a note of sarcasm here)…Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) deal was finalised, later subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft. All some would say to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Dead right .......a lot of good in later years for the worlds arms producers not too much evidence that he improved the lot of his people.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by DtheP47

A lot of good in later years eh? let’s see the proof on that Mr C
As President of a country with criminally deep socio-ecnomic problems, did he pour resources into redressing the imbalances of apartheid. Did he heck as like, Mandela’s government slipped into the custom of putting national corporatism, power and prestige above its people
With the all-powerful air armadas of Botswana weighing heavily on the minds (a note of sarcasm here)…Mandela’s government announced in November 1998 that it intended to purchase 28 BAE/SAAB JAS 39 Gripen fighter aircraft from Sweden at a cost of R10.875 billion, i.e. R388 million (about US$65 million) per plane
Not content with jets, in 1999 a US$4.8 billion (R30 billion in 1999 rands) deal was finalised, later subject to allegations of corruption. The South African Department of Defence’s Strategic Defence Acquisition purchased a slew of shiny new weapons, including frigates, submarines, corvettes, light utility helicopters, fighter jet trainers and advanced light fighter aircraft. All some would say to keep the expansionist intentions of Madagascar at bay…
Dead right .......a lot of good in later years for the worlds arms producers not too much evidence that he improved the lot of his people.

And the finale of the piece you forgot to mark as a quote states...

"It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes. In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors. The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal."

[Barrie Yates]

Originally Posted by Neil

Is South Africa a better place now?
Have the ANC done what they said they would do for the people?

I have been to RSA quite a few times visiting family, during and post apartheid.
If you talk to South Africans, both black & white, including ANC supporters, the majority will say that it is a worse place to live now. When I first went there the exchange rate was R5.3/£1, it fell drastically and now it is around 16 to the £. The ANC have failed to meet the promises they have continued to make, yes, many rich blacks but many more are dirt poor. Perhaps worst of all is that racialism is still rife - if you are Xhosa then you have a better chance, but if you are from a minority tribe then you are down the list, way down. The political parties are in the main supported on tribal lines.
It is no different to N.Ireland - ex-terrorists in the government.

[Boeing Guy]

Much like the majority of African countries

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by cashman

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.

Cashy, the media either lionise someone or demonise them...there appears to be no middle road.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cashman

Doubt if anyones disputing the guy did a lot of good in his later years? Its just too sickly to me, to make the guy out to be a saint.

Totally agree Cashy, Gandhi and Martin Luther King, fought racial prejudice with words not a gun barrel,