New bulbs.

[cashman]

well i know sod all about this,but looking and reading jambuttys link,he seems to be correct with the colors cyfr.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Ianto.W.

this type of bulb or lighting is cheaper to run providing you use them in the correct manner IE switch them on and leave them on, all flourecent lighting is expensive to 'start up', if you are going to continualy switch them on and off, they are neither cheap or convenient but a darned pest as the 'warm up time is too long.

I am not sure if that was ever the case, even with old fittings or if it always was an old wives tale. I will quote some info I found to save me typing it all in:

It is a popularly held belief that fluorescent lights (including CFL's) use a "lot" of energy to get started, and thus it is better not to turn them off for "short" periods. There is an increase in power demand when a light is switched on, and the exact amount of this increase depends on the type of ballast and lamp. The ballast provides an initial high voltage for starting the lamp and regulates the lamp current during operation. This relatively higher "inrush" current lasts for half a cycle, or 1/120th of a second. The amount of electricity consumed to supply the inrush current is equal to a few seconds or less of normal light operation. Turning off fluorescent lights for more than 5 seconds will save more energy than will be consumed in turning them back on again.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by cashman

well i know sod all about this,but looking and reading jambuttys link,he seems to be correct with the colors cyfr.

He is correct, but it has no relevance

The high energy blue/violet light dosn't work very well with solar panels, where as red light does.

Pretty pointless being high energy if it dosn't work! Jambutty just failed to link the knowledge he found to our situation, cause i'd already said blue light dosn't work, its energy dosn't matter, because the energy isn't the reason it dosn't work.


ps. check the graph link on my other post. The bottom of the graph indicates the light colour.. the left side is violet then it works its way to red on the right. It shows that red is more efficient.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

Right i'll attempt again to explain it though my patience is thinning.

I tried to warn you but it looks like my post was deleted. Somebody must have wanted you to go through this pain

[Ianto.W.]

I like janbutty Neil spent all or most of my life from leaving school in the electrical trade, I personally do not understand some of the things discussed in this thread, but if you place a 'clip on' ammeter round the phase being used you will see the proof of my old wives tale.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Ianto.W.

if you place a 'clip on' ammeter round the phase being used you will see the proof of my old wives tale.

The article says that the start up current is the same as 5 seconds normal running. Yes there is a start up surge but it is only very short on modern lamps. The real test would be to fit a kw/h meter to your lamp. Take a reading after a week of it being on continuously, then try another week of switching it on and off as needed.

I was having a quote at work from a lighting engineer a few months ago for zoning some florescent lights so they could be automatically turned on and off as needed to save electricity. He also said that start up current equates to only a few seconds of running power on modern florescent lamps and that they should be turned off when not needed.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Neil

The article says that the start up current is the same as 5 seconds normal running. Yes there is a start up surge but it is only very short on modern lamps. The real test would be to fit a kw/h meter to your lamp. Take a reading after a week of it being on continuously, then try another week of switching it on and off as needed.

I was having a quote at work from a lighting engineer a few months ago for zoning some florescent lights so they could be automatically turned on and off as needed to save electricity. He also said that start up current equates to only a few seconds of running power on modern florescent lamps and that they should be turned off when not needed.

I must admit that lighting like all other electrical products have improved, and are far more effecient than in my day, there is now a quickstart type, Iv'e also found some of the old fittings parts and tubes are not compatable with the new ones so 'yerman' is probably correct.

[Neil]

Everything changes (except maybe transformers). The latest high frequency florescent tubes are only about 15mm in diameter. They will eventually replace the current ones. I am told that 8' fittings are being phased out as well.

[Ianto.W.]

Originally Posted by Neil

Everything changes (except maybe transformers). The latest high frequency florescent tubes are only about 15mm in diameter. They will eventually replace the current ones. I am told that 8' fittings are being phased out as well.

The only problem with the 15mm tubes that iv'e found is that thay do not seem to last as long as the the wider ones, this is how I discovered the incompatability, when trying to fit a wider tube it would not work. But I have been retired for 10 years, it was the guy in the shop that wised me up.

[entwisi]

Originally Posted by Neil

Everything changes (except maybe transformers).

Nope they do as well, into cars, boats, planes.............(Robots in disguise........)


OK, I'll get me coat

[Neil]

Originally Posted by Ianto.W.

The only problem with the 15mm tubes that iv'e found is that thay do not seem to last as long as the the wider ones, this is how I discovered the incompatability, when trying to fit a wider tube it would not work. But I have been retired for 10 years, it was the guy in the shop that wised me up.

I don't think the tri-phospher, high frequency ones have been around 10 years. You can get standard 15mm tubes as well, I agree that they don't seam to last very long. There is also the problem of disposal. A business has to treat them (all fluorescent lamps) as hazardous waste and have them removed by a licensed contractor. Householders just throw them in the bin.

Originally Posted by entwisi

OK, I'll get me coat

Don't forget your hat

[DeShark]

Hello all. Long time no see. Been at uni in manchester studying... physics. I just felt that the physics being used was sketchy at best. Lack of clear reliable sources meant that confusion is everywhere and I hoped I might be able to clear up the matter somewhat.

I think most people are happy that flourescent bulbs do not produce as much heat (infrared radiation) as their classical cousins. Simply by looking at the two types of bulb (without the aid of a prism/magnifying glass) you can see that the Energy saving bulbs (Compact Flourescent Lamp or CFL for short) emit bluish white light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CFBulbs.jpg).

Since the human eye can only view light in the visible spectrum (with wavelength from about 350 - 750nm. Your mileage may vary though) any light emitted outside this range is wasted (for viewing purposes by the human eye). Thus, by converting electrical energy into only visible light (rather than infrared as well) the CFLs are more efficient at lighting and thus require less energy per second (power). In this way, 20 Watts of power can produce the same amount of visible light as an equivalent 100 Watt bulb.

Light is composed of discreet packets of energy (quanta) known as photons. Each photon has a set energy which is related directly to its frequency by the equation Energy = hc/wavelength (where h is Planck's Constant and c is the speed of light). A photon of Blue light (wavelength=400nm) therefore has more energy than a photon of red light (wavelength=700nm).

http://www.howstuffworks.com/solar-cell4.htm (stated as a reliable source previously) says that the energy of photons falling on a crystalline silicon solar panel must be 1.1 to 1.4 eV of Energy which corresponds to a wavelength of 885 - 1127nm. As you can see on this image of the electromagnetic spectrum, these wavelengths lie in the infrared end of the spectrum. Any other photons are wasted. Thus the frequency of the light is paramount to the effectiveness of the calculator's solar panel.

Having said all that, I live in university halls and hence have no choice about the light bulbs used in my room. I think it's a CFL covered with some sort of protective cover that blocks out a ton of the light, so I can't comment on whether the things are actually as bright as they say they should be. It's possible that the manufacturers are using theoretical equivalance values which may not be applicable in practise.

I'd also expect the Energy saving bulbs to be far more cost effective. Assuming that we leave both bulbs on for 10,000 hours, we'd need to buy 10 incandescant bulbs and one Energy saving bulb. Taking the price of an incandescant bulb to be 50p and an energy saving bulb to be £3.50 we've saved money already without even considering the electric bill! Taking a cheap price of electricity of 5p per kilowatt hour gives that the energy saving bulb (25W) uses £12.50 and the equivalent incandescant bulb (100W) uses £50 of electricity. Obviously you don't leave the bulbs on all day and all night, but the point is there.

Finally, I find the response of various people to global warming and environmental damage to be quite shocking. Global warming is no fictional device created to make money! It's a fact. Just like people used to deny that smoking is dangerous to your health. Tackling the situation will require radical action. Complaining at being told to replace your lightbulbs to conserve energy, time and money is just daft. Why fight it? Replace your bulbs, save money, save time and save your children's future.

References:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/solar-cell4.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/efficie...g/bulbratings/

[Ianto.W.]

My white flag is now definitely up now, I surrender.

[DeShark]

P.S. The blue bulb will permit infrared emission to occur. Just touch the bulb to see how hot it gets. This heat will be radiated and used to power your calculator explaining why it works. Your lighter also emits infrared radiation as will your computer screeen.

[entwisi]

Global warming may not be a fictional device but the 'evidence' that it is us that is causing it is not as yet proven. The world has and will continue to go through major climate changes as time progresses.

Interestingly as a result of global warming we in the UK are more likely to experience colder weather due to the dilution of the sea affecting the North Atlantic drift which keeps us artificially warm.