NHS criminal neglect proposals

[egg&chips]

Two threads started in two days, I must have too much time on my hands!
Does anyone else have mixed feelings on this? Health service workers seem to be the whipping boys(and girls) whenever things go pear shaped. Should criminal charges also be brought perhaps against the administrators and even politicians who put them in such untenable positions?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the side of those who mess up and cover up but it always seems that there's a bullet proof ceiling with regards to high profile cases implying neglect. I always wonder just how high the brown stuff has to rise before those who make a lot of decisions, that determine the systematic failure of various infrastructures, get their shoes smelly

[maxthecollie]

Too many administrators in my mind in the NHS.

[Neil]

Did you follow and of the hacking stuff on the TV and watch them interview Murdoch for corporate neglect or whatever they call it. Trying to say that the man right at the top should know what those at the bottom are doing. I agree to a point but the top dog can't be expected to know what everyone is doing, they put others in place to share that responsibilty

[egg&chips]

Maybe so Neil, but I believe that organisations evolve in a model influenced by the very top. Drive and ruthlessness in a leader are picked up by subordinates, similarly economy at the cost of quality can be contagious throughout management structures. Was it Harry S Truman whose desk bore the legend "The buck stops here" ?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by egg&chips

.....Was it Harry S Truman whose desk bore the legend "The buck stops here" ?

Using that as an example why isn't the Commander in Chief of the army being charged with the Marine A incident?

[accyman]

i think its criminal we have nurses and doctors walking dead on their feet because government keeps making cuts after cuts while shoveling crap loads of money to other countries healthcare

havnt we just paid for some countries first launch into space to mars or something.From what i recall the cost of launching the rocket into space was practically the amount we sent to them in aid

i think it was India but to be fair to India they did try giving us the money back but cameron wouldnt allow it to be returned

and next year he wants to send even more

[flashy]

well said accyman

what happened in mid staffs was diabolical, we now.have several new reports we have to work under, namely the keogh and francis reports (google them). The CEO's wont have ever walked a ward in their lives, they dont have a clue, the government dont give a flying one, we are down on resources in most parts of our hospital yet we still have to take the crap that is thrown at us via patients and relatives because we dont immediately have what they want, we often get comments like ' this hospital is crap, the papers where right', none of the wards stand a chance, mid staffs has tarred us all with the same brush and its not right, most of us do a blinking good job and take pride in our work, please dont go in to hospital with negative thoughts thanx to the press, most of us do care

[Margaret Pilkington]

The NHS is guilty by association.
Most people go to be a nurse because they want to help people. They don't do it because wages are good, or the working conditions are great.....because they aren't.
I can identify with what you say, from my own working days, but have seen recently that there are less available resources than there were when I was working(and it was tough back then).
There are too many expensive administrators. Their wages would pay for more hands on carers, and That is really what is needed, well that and a healthier attitude to whistleblowers.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

The NHS is guilty by association.
Most people go to be a nurse because they want to help people. They don't do it because wages are good, or the working conditions are great.....because they aren't.
I can identify with what you say, from my own working days, but have seen recently that there are less available resources than there were when I was working(and it was tough back then).
There are too many expensive administrators. Their wages would pay for more hands on carers, and That is really what is needed, well that and a healthier attitude to whistleblowers.

Next time anybody is in hospital try playing the game spot the clip board, see how many you count, I first started playing this game back in 2002, well before any tory government was elected accyman

[flashy]

they dont have clipboards anymore John, they have ipads now

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by flashy

they dont have clipboards anymore John, they have ipads now

todays ipad yesterdays clipboard still the same people, walking around doing sweet F A

[Studio25]

Originally Posted by flashy

...The CEO's wont have ever walked a ward in their lives, they dont have a clue...

I have a multi-stage plan to sort out the NHS, but the two main points are:

• 50% cuts in administrative and non-essential roles. If a job does not directly affect a patient's welfare, then it's a candidate for removal. This means you'd lose the person who was recently employed specifically to trawl the news for stories which presented the local trust in a good light, for example. The savings would be filtered back into ensuring each ward was staffed at an appropriate level.

• Almost-complete ban on the use of agency staff. If a ward cannot be staffed at an appropriate level by its own team, then there is a problem. I have it on good authority that most agency staff generate more work than they save, and they cost an absolute fortune. The CEO needs to sign an approval for each individual agency request. That would quickly show where the problems lie.

Throughout my career I've watched people avoid being accountable, in the private sector as well as public. In most ailing organisations, there is a fear of action in case it's wrong, so money is thrown at "cosmetics" - trying to make the organisation look better, rather than trying to make it better.

Edit: Staffing is a particular problem because nobody knows from one day to the next how ill people will be. They don't want a ward with seven staff doing the work of three people because it's quiet. So instead they "bare bone" it and maintain three staff and try to build up the team when it's busy. With my system, there would be plenty of nonessential administrative work that can be completed on these "quiet" days.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I have spent a lot of time in and around hospital this year.
I cannot recall a single day where the staff were not run off their feet....this was on a surgical ward with some very poorly patients.
Patients with urgent and complex needs.
When I was in charge of my own ward I would use my own staff flexibly to cope with unexpected occurrences , but this is only possible if you have adequate staff to start off with.
Also you need staff who can and are willing to work flexibly, and this was fully discussed at interview.

[flashy]

Originally Posted by Studio25

I have a multi-stage plan to sort out the NHS, but the two main points are:

• 50% cuts in administrative and non-essential roles.

• Almost-complete ban on the use of agency staff. If a ward cannot be staffed at an appropriate level by its own team, then there is a problem. I have it on good authority that most agency staff generate more work than they save, and they cost an absolute fortune. The CEO needs to sign an approval for each individual agency request. That would quickly show where the problems lie.

Edit: Staffing is a particular problem because nobody knows from one day to the next how ill people will be. They don't want a ward with seven staff doing the work of three people because it's quiet. So instead they "bare bone" it and maintain three staff and try to build up the team when it's busy. With my system, there would be plenty of nonessential administrative work that can be completed on these "quiet" days.

1, there is NO such thing as a ''quiet'' ward,
2, admin work is 80% of every nurses, auxilliarys, ward clerks, domestics, doctors, physio's, occupational therapists, consultants, security guards, porters job, so there is no way of cutting back on it, however much you would like to

everytime i so much as touch a patient i have to write it down, we have charts for turning people, charts for what implements we use to turn them, lift them or move them, we have to write down if the bed is static or not, if they have sat in the chair at all, how much and what they have eaten in a day, fluid intake and output, diet requirements, moving and handling requirements, bowel movements, mobility, if they have any blanching to pressure points, then there's the obs....usually hourly ones that need to be wrote down, when a patient leaves we clean the patients area from top to bottom, we have to fill in an A4 bed check list to make sure everything is suitable for the next patient...then there is the cleaning of equipment we use...we have to write down when we have used and cleaned the hoists, commodes etc

and thats just the admin that us auxilliaries do....nurses have 2/3 times more admin duties to do aswell as looking after every single patient on the ward, so next time you reckon you can 'fix' the NHS, studio, please think again....oh and next time you or a family member has to go to hospital, just take a second to think about how much crap the staff already have to put up with...before you think there is a quick fix to things

[Margaret Pilkington]

Shaz, I know what you are saying, but I think(and I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong) that what Studio meant wasn't the administrative duties that staff at the sharp end deal with, that is always going to be there(and it is important to realise if it isn't documented, that it is as good as never having been done - you have to have proof in the case of an incident)
I think that what Studio meant was the staff whose jobs are purely administrative...those highly paid top of the tree managers...those who have offices in Tower View,(or that is where they used to hang out) who issue orders without having any idea as to the implications those orders will have on the workers who are already flat out.

When I was there visiting my daughter earlier this year, I did see Lyn Wissett doing a walk around the ward.....she is the chief nurse at RBH.

Back when I worked at QPH(for that was what it was then,) the Chief Exec used to work for a week on the wards every year. He said he learned more about what was going on than at any other time.

There is no quick fix. You cannot run the NHS without spending money on staff.
Looking after patients is a labour intensive job...cutting staff is not economic in the long run.