Oh Hum its a funny old world

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Gordon Booth

I'm afraid it's typical of those who has spent their lives isolated in academia that they feel there is their view(the correct one) and the views of those who don't agree with them(through lack of understanding, poor things). That's one of the problems of our education system today.
Of course the USSR had some remarkable achievements, if you keep a state of almost 300 million people short of food,clothing,housing etc and work them like slaves there will be lots of money left for some 'remarkable achievements'.
For almost 30 years Stalin was the USSR and the USSR was Stalin. If Stalin was a lunatic(agreed) he was ruling a lunatic state because the two were one.
You concentrate on a few physical achievements-the nations efforts and sacrifices during the war-yes. The T34-yes(well designed for massive rapid production to overwhelm the Panzers). The Ak47-yes(brilliantly designed for the job it was intended for). The first man and woman in space-yes. The Lada- well, you can't get them all right, can you?Vodka- I like it. The Soyuz- a marvellous workhorse for space.

But lets look at how the USSR(don't just blame Stalin) treated its reason for existing- its people.
Between 3 and 10 million people starved to death under the 'Collectivization of Agriculture' policy .
Two and a half million peasants who didn't starve exiled to clear the land.
3.7 million sentenced for 'revolutionary crimes' in 2 years,0.6 million of them shot, 2.4 million sent to labour camps.
The 'Great Purge'-1.5 million arrested, 700,000 of them shot.
80,000 of the top military and its officers shot because Stalin was worried about them. Leaving the armed forces without experienced leadership just before a war started.

You quote a few physical achievements- I quote the price the people paid. The price was far in excess of the achievements. And the Soyuz, the man and woman in space, most of its post war achievements, destroyed it by bankrupting it.
Little to praise or admire.

If you are looking for a boogey man to scare the children away from socialism, forget about Stalin ... He's been an embarrassment to the Soviet Union and the Russians since at least the time of the secret letter.

Oh, and don't forget the more than 30 million who died fighting Nazism ... another notable achievement. Or is that something else that requires little praise or admiration.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Eric

If you are looking for a boogey man to scare the children away from socialism, forget about Stalin ... He's been an embarrassment to the Soviet Union and the Russians since at least the time of the secret letter.

Oh, and don't forget the more than 30 million who died fighting Nazism ... another notable achievement. Or is that something else that requires little praise or admiration.

If he's looking for a bogeyman he's looking at the wrong empire..

A moral audit of the British empire | openDemocracy

Deny the British empire's crimes? No, we ignore them | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

That Good Old British Empire? « Lila Rajiva: The Mind-Body Politic

Using Gordons own words..little to praise or admire

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Guinness

And we go full circle to the standard 13 years of labour rule argument.

If the rest of your post about GJ were true, which I don't think it is, why would it bother you so much...after all in your ethos its not about being paid your value and worth but getting what you can by any means as long as its legal, and you also forfeit the right to criticise Gordon Brown for non attendance or in fact any MP who makes a spurious expense claim as long as they don't break the law. You can't have it both ways

Well you must agree that in those 13 years they did little to change all those so called wrongs imposed by the Tories, so its obvious all those wrongs became rights and would have been undertake by Labour but never had the bottle. Everybody in the country knows we have a benefits system that's not fit for purpose, yet successive Governments have refused to change it because of the fear of backlash, but there is something wrong were people can get more money lying in bed on benefits than going out to work, I'm not saying that everything Cameron is doing is right far from it, he leaves a lot to be desired but if he can change this benefit culture which seems to be ingrained into our society we'll have at least one thing to thank him for

Your second point isn't worth an argument, when Blair stood down as Prime Minister, re also stood down from Parliament, to fallow another career, yet Brown is doing the same thing but getting paid by the tax payer, he is not representing the people who voted for him, (in local government if a councillor doesn't attend a meeting in, I think six months, he/she are disqualified from office, this should also apply to MPS

[Less]

Originally Posted by jaysay

Well you must agree that in those 13 years they did little to change all those so called wrongs imposed by the Tories,

If they did little in your standard 13 years to alter what had been done by the Tories and the Tories are as perfect as you claim then what they had put in place would have carried us not only through those 13 years with hardly a glitch but on to a British paradise that should have lasted at least 1,000 years.

P.S. have you set up a macro so that whenever a criticism of the Tories appears on site, the 13 years speech is automatically brought into play?

Got to admit it's nowhere near as interesting as putting together real thoughts such as Eric and Guinness have done.

[Margaret Pilkington]

Originally Posted by Guinness

If he's looking for a bogeyman he's looking at the wrong empire..

A moral audit of the British empire | openDemocracy

Deny the British empire's crimes? No, we ignore them | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

That Good Old British Empire? « Lila Rajiva: The Mind-Body Politic

Using Gordons own words..little to praise or admire

The past is a graveyard where we bury our mistakes.

I hate that people in power feel the need to apologise for things over which they had no control....you can only apologise for the things which you were involved in, otherwise it makes the apology nothing more than the weasel words we hear politicians utter today...they are meaningless, and not only that, they dilute the power of all apologies in the future....those made from the heart and with sincere contrition.

All countries have been responsible for things which we now consider to be bad...or amoral....and do you think that we learn anything from those mistakes...of course we don't! Future generations will look back(with the benefit of hindsight - which we all know is 20/20) and criticise happenings of today...they will wonder how our supposed civilzation could be so crass.....but I do hope they won't be making apologies for it.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Less

If they did little in your standard 13 years to alter what had been done by the Tories and the Tories are as perfect as you claim then what they had put in place would have carried us not only through those 13 years with hardly a glitch but on to a British paradise that should have lasted at least 1,000 years.

P.S. have you set up a macro so that whenever a criticism of the Tories appears on site, the 13 years speech is automatically brought into play?

Got to admit it's nowhere near as interesting as putting together real thoughts such as Eric and Guinness have done.

As Margaret says the place to bury yesterday's mistakes is in the graveyard, maybe that's why Labour didn't change anything they so vehemently opposed when it was introduced, its very rare that any government repeals acts introduced by its predecessors. As for Eric and Guinness, they continually long for the past, where I think to the future, if they want to talk about the good old days try the nostalgia section

[Margaret Pilkington]

when you get older( I use that term advisedly) we spend time living in the past because the future we have, could be very limited...and the past is something that we have lots of.

There is no country in the world that can rejoice and say it has a clear conscience....and until they can look at their own mistakes and denounce those too, then they should shut up and move on.
The past cannot be altered, however many tears are shed over the happenings.

[cmonstanley]

well looks like its the end of an independent police force and the tories will get revenge over the mitchell affair. G4S chief predicts mass police privatisation | UK news | The Guardian

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by cmonstanley

well looks like its the end of an independent police force and the tories will get revenge over the mitchell affair. G4S chief predicts mass police privatisation | UK news | The Guardian

Do you mind keeping to your own Muppet thread and stop ruining others that are enjoyable with informed debate, not unmitigated claptrap from spurious links from rags like the Guardian

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

when you get older( I use that term advisedly) we spend time living in the past because the future we have, could be very limited...and the past is something that we have lots of.

There is no country in the world that can rejoice and say it has a clear conscience....and until they can look at their own mistakes and denounce those too, then they should shut up and move on.
The past cannot be altered, however many tears are shed over the happenings.

I'm ever the optimist Margaret. I love to look to the future, its the only real pleasure I get, just wondering which events in the future I'll be around to see, never thought I'd see my 65 birthday, in fact I quoted that in an interview with the Observer in 1991, but my next mile stone is 67 in July, never thought I'd see the Olympics but I did, now my next gaol is the World Cup in Brazil in 2014, fingers crossed

[Margaret Pilkington]

Power to your elbow John...keep having something to look forward to, it is often the way to keep going....even though it is creakily, it is way better than the alternative.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Power to your elbow John...keep having something to look forward to, it is often the way to keep going....even though it is creakily, it is way better than the alternative.

Ya Margaret the glass is still half full not half empty

[Margaret Pilkington]

You drain it to the dregs John!

[yerself]

Originally Posted by jaysay

not unmitigated claptrap from spurious links from rags like the Guardian

Or the 'Daily Mail'

[Gordon Booth]

Originally Posted by Guinness

If he's looking for a bogeyman he's looking at the wrong empire..

A moral audit of the British empire | openDemocracy

Deny the British empire's crimes? No, we ignore them | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

That Good Old British Empire? « Lila Rajiva: The Mind-Body Politic

Using Gordons own words..little to praise or admire

Don't get me going again, Guinness!
The way we behaved then was by a totally different set of standards and attitudes than we have now. There's no point in being ashamed or apologising for something done by earlier generations which was perfectly acceptable in their world. Anyway, we were the first to ban slavery!
If you want to see colonial powers at their worst(even by the standards of the day) try reading about the Belgian colonies! And the Germans and Spanish. We were teddy bears by comparison.