One Step Too Far

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

Garinda, no-one forces any immigrants to live where they do. They choose to live in and among the people who they feel they have most in common with.
Unfortunately this does not facilitate integration. I have a friend who is a district nurse in Oldham and there are some areas where Asian youths stand on the streets and tell visiting white people they will not be welcome in 'their' area,this is done in an intimidating manner.

When Asians first came to Lancashire to work in the mills in the 50's and 60's, where they lived often saw a mass exodus of their white neighbours, with people thinking that they would paint their houses purple and orange and prices of properties nearby would fall.

So my point that we may have created ghettos ourselves because we didn't let these people integrate, I still think may be true.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by kash

I do have a choice and that choice is to follow Islam. the law isn't the main thing in my life stopping me from doing things, its Islam.

eg drinking alcohol is legal and pubs can be open 24hrs and thankfully Islam prohibits alcohol. I also dont believe in sex before marriage. drugs and fags are also off the list for me, all thanks to Islam.

i wonder if any of you have actually sat down and had a good conversation with a 'practising' muslim and see what they have to say.

you wonder wrong i,m afraid kash- i have many times over last 25 years, i have been to muslim weddings at the town hall, been invited to houses for eid,and have many good friends in the muslim community. but i stand by what i say. the community is in many cases in denial of whats happening and need to wake up.

[Madhatter]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Why is it wrong that children should choose to live near their parents? Surely, the sense of family and the strength of support is a good thing?

You agree with groups of people taking over whole areas of towns and cities so only see the good side to staying with family, I don't and see the bad side of 'communities within walls' that don't want anyone else in them.
MArgaret, how would you like it if asians bought up every house in your street and around it, and the shops and churches only started to cater for asians. Where would your community be then.

[junetta]

Rindy stated that it is the same when us English move to Spain or other European countries and I've found that is very true. There are English communities, English bars, English Churches, English companies and also English schools here in Tenerife. English Bank Holiday's are observed by English companies but ignored by the Spanish.

I live in a small Spanish village which is slowly being taken over by British, German and French........no-one asks if that's ok to the Spanish. I know we bring in money which helps the Spanish community but explain that to a kid who wants to buy an apartment but can't because the prices have doubled and shoved him out of the market.

My apartment is rented, I don't shop at Iceland, I drink in Spanish bars and have several Spanish friends. I also speak Spanish, even though I'm not fluent. I've seen ignorant English shouting, in English, to barmen as if the poor lads were stupid. It doesn't take much to learn how to ask for a beer and say please and thank you in any language.

At the other side of the coin. We don't try to change the way the Spanish live their lives and wouldn't even think of it. We enjoy their festivals and respect their religion.

[kash]

Can I ask why certain Muslim individuals believe it is their duty to Islam to blow themselves and many other innocent people up?

A person doesn't just wake up one day and think "today i'll blow myself up".
in palestine their land has been taken families killed, children with school bags have been shot by snipers. the world turning a blind eye, letting israel do what ever it wants. its a combination of everything.

many muslims have been killed in this 'war on terror' yet there is no minute of silence. when isreal blows up a building killing many innocent people its on the news for one day and when theres a bomd in israel regardless of casautly its on the news for days even weeks. also minute silences one or two years on.
and yet many say muslims are not the victims.

yes every muslim should promote Islam but its not a major part if it, its not one of the five pillars of Islam. just by letting someone know my name can be classed as promoting Islam. i dont have to force it on people.

[Gayle]

The world is becoming a mixed bag of races, cultures, art, faith, etc.

Why are you not complaining that the USA have more or less taken over our eating habits - anyone have a KFC or McDonalds this week? Does anyone play baseball or basketball or ice hockey? Did you watch CSI or Lost this week?

And what about us - when you go abroad to Spain or Greece don't you still manage to buy PG Tips in the supermarket, don't they sell Kit Kats and Nescafe now?

My point is that cultures are globalising as people travel more and emigrate to different countries. This is happening in every country in the world, not just England.

There will not be a time when everyone in this country follows Islam because no one is forced to. It is the very nature of faith that religious leaders believe that you should spread your faith around and you can't fault Islam for doing a good job of it when the catholic and church of England are doing such a bad job of it. People need a support system in their life and some people rely heavily on their faith to give them the structure and rules that they need.

I think that we English people are very poor at talking about things that matter to us - i.e. money, faith, politics, etc - we all get faintly embarressed by having strong beliefs in any of these areas so we prefer to keep them to ourselves. Whereas people who follow Islam are usually proud to say that and happy to talk about their faith and what it means to them.

Sorry, I've rambled a bit - I've come into this discussion late.

[Tealeaf]

Originally Posted by Gayle

The world is becoming a mixed bag of races, cultures, art, faith, etc.

Why are you not complaining that the USA have more or less taken over our eating habits - anyone have a KFC or McDonalds this week? Does anyone play baseball or basketball or ice hockey? Did you watch CSI or Lost this week?

And what about us - when you go abroad to Spain or Greece don't you still manage to buy PG Tips in the supermarket, don't they sell Kit Kats and Nescafe now?

My point is that cultures are globalising as people travel more and emigrate to different countries. This is happening in every country in the world, not just England.

There will not be a time when everyone in this country follows Islam because no one is forced to. It is the very nature of faith that religious leaders believe that you should spread your faith around and you can't fault Islam for doing a good job of it when the catholic and church of England are doing such a bad job of it. People need a support system in their life and some people rely heavily on their faith to give them the structure and rules that they need.

I think that we English people are very poor at talking about things that matter to us - i.e. money, faith, politics, etc - we all get faintly embarressed by having strong beliefs in any of these areas so we prefer to keep them to ourselves. Whereas people who follow Islam are usually proud to say that and happy to talk about their faith and what it means to them.

Sorry, I've rambled a bit - I've come into this discussion late.

Welcome back, Gayle. I hope you enjoyed your little sojurn in East Anglia. Well, as you can see, nowt has changed in the interim - you're posting the usual politically-correct idealistic nonsense while most of the rest of us are busy getting on in the real world.

The simple fact is that world is not "becoming a mixed bag of races, cultures..."; it is the western civilisation that is becoming so. As far as I am aware, there is not an influx of European or American people into Africa or Asia; the traffic is one way only, and that is here to the west. I along with most people in the UK, have no intention of emigrating to India, Pakistan, Nigeria or Bulgaria.

However, The notion that modern christianity is failing may well hold some truth. That is probably due to it's fundamental weakness which is that it is fully compatible with an open society, equality and democracy; none of which is the case with Islam (for instance, no free speech, women subserviant and party political votes as such, decided on the edict of the head Mosque catweasle)

Nor, I suppose, does the Church of England do itself any favour with it's current head honcho (Canterbury) and his No 2 (York). The former gives the appearance of someone who spends the best part of his day scavenging in the rubbish bins at the back of his local Macdonalds, while the latter is at best, no more than a dodgy Ugandan asylum seeker whose most recent effort at a hard-hitting Christian message amounted to kipping in an indoor tent for a week.The grand finale was an African black magic head-shaving ritual followed, no doubt, by the burning of a few chicken bones. No wonder many traditional Christians are in depair.

[Margaret Pilkington]

MH....well, I suppose you are right ......it could happen especially as the residents of the street are now mainly pensioners with just a few young families.....but the point I was trying to get across was that a community that has been together for such a long time (as we have....there are some people who have lived in this street for nearly 80 years) is almost bound to have a strong family feel to it.
Muslim communities must be the same.
And I think when the English migrate to other countries they tend to congregate where other english folk are because we are very bad at learning languages and want to be with people we can converse with.
If you go to English speaking countries like the USA and Australia I think the English integrate better...because of the commonality of the language......(although there maybe someone out there who knows different).

[jambutty]

I do have a choice and that choice is to follow Islam. the law isn't the main thing in my life stopping me from doing things, its Islam.

You may think that you have a choice kash but that is down to indoctrination from a very early age. The same as any other religion. The children are brought up in the religious beliefs of their parents. Catholicism used to be like Islam is today, where the religious leaders held complete sway over their followers. Those who fell by the way side were dragged back into line. Hundreds of years ago we were brain washed into believing that unless we didn’t do as we were told we would not go to heaven. Over time we saw through the charade, found that there was no lightning bolt from God if we done wrong and started to question the church. Those who attend the Christian churches today are just hedging their bets, just in case there is something in the belief.

Muslims believe that if they serve Islam, when they die they will sit at the right hand of Muhammad. Thus many gullible Muslims are quite prepared to sacrifice their own life to achieve this aim and thus the suicide bomber is born.

According to my two dictionaries ghetto means – Jewish quarter and/or slum area occupied by a particular group. The OED offers - 1 a part of a city, especially a slum area, occupied by a minority group. 2 historical - the Jewish quarter in a city.

On the other hand enclave means – portion of territory entirely surrounded by foreign land and/or small territory wholly within the boundaries of another. The OED offers - 1 a portion of territory surrounded by a larger territory whose inhabitants are culturally or ethnically distinct. 2 a group that is different in character from those surrounding it: a male enclave.

Thus we cannot refer to Asian immigrant areas as ghettos Gayle and others. Immigrants have taken over the less favourable parts of our towns and cities probably because it was a cheap option. Immigrants, by definition, leave their own country for a better life somewhere else and what we might refer to as a slum they would accept as normal. It is all relative!

Did a lot of recent immigrants chose to live in ghettos here,

If my personal experience is anything to go by the answer yes they do garinda. Some 25 years ago I was a house owner with a mortgage then one day a house on our street went up for sale. The only enquiries the house owner got was from Asian immigrants. Probably because neighbouring streets had a few Asian immigrants living in them. All nice families. Once the house was sold to a very nice Asian couple from Pakistan who were quite friendly and seemed to be part of the community. For months afterwards I had continual enquiries from Pakistani people if my house was for sale when it wasn’t even on the market. Personal circumstances, and not the constant badgering, forced me to sell up and the only enquiries I got were from Asian (Pakistani) immigrants.

Can I ask why certain Muslim individuals believe it is their duty to Islam to blow themselves and many other innocent people up?

It is because of the indoctrinated belief that death in the service of Islam is an automatic path to heaven morgan_brotherz.

i dont have to force it on people.

No kash you don't, it is done by stealth and ever increasing weight of numbers.

[Madhatter]

agree with tealeaf and butty, even though the top half is my post.

[Gayle]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

Welcome back, Gayle. I hope you enjoyed your little sojurn in East Anglia. Well, as you can see, nowt has changed in the interim - you're posting the usual politically-correct idealistic nonsense while most of the rest of us are busy getting on in the real world.

The simple fact is that world is not "becoming a mixed bag of races, cultures..."; it is the western civilisation that is becoming so. As far as I am aware, there is not an influx of European or American people into Africa or Asia; the traffic is one way only, and that is here to the west. I along with most people in the UK, have no intention of emigrating to India, Pakistan, Nigeria or Bulgaria.

I found this table of immigration to various countries - India is number 4 in the list

Table 1: Top ten countries for total immigration (1970-1995) [1]CountryNet number of immigrants (millions)
United States 16.7
Russian Federation 4.1
Saudi Arabia 3.4
India 3.3
Canada 3.3
Germany 2.7
France 1.4
Australia 1.4
Turkey 1.3
United Arab Emirates 1.3


This is from the attached website

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ES...14912#footnote

Figures are the latest that I could find.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Margaret Pilkington

If you go to English speaking countries like the USA and Australia I think the English integrate better...because of the commonality of the language......(although there maybe someone out there who knows different).

True enough. Six months later, local accent adopted, and you are more or less a native. Fair dinkum.

It does probably help to integrate though, having the same colour skin as your new compatriots.

[claytonender]

What the Islamic elders do not seem to appreciate is that there are olts of peopel in this country who have to work on Bank Holidays. so why should they think they can have their own.
My husband is a maintence amn at a Home for the Elderly, if Christmas Day, Good Friday fall on a day he would normally work, he is not allowed to take time off. If he wants Christmas Day off he has to take it unpaid, even though he might have unused holidays, because the rules of the company are that no employee is allowed time off in December.

[katex]

Just one question Kash. Hope you can give an honest answer here.

Should you have discovered that a supposed beloved devout Muslim brother/sister had been on the way to Manchester airport last week with the means to blow up an aircraft, what would you have done ?

[jambutty]

Good question katex.

I wonder if there will be an answer?