Panopticon- the alternative view

[accyplus]

I was told that the trenches were dug out during the World war two,to stop enemy
aircraft from landing,and once a upon a time there two cannons pointing out over
Accrington,they were next to stone monument.
I am also told they were vandalised and rolled down the coppice,the wooden gun mounts survived and they were still there a few years ago.

[Bagpuss]

Originally Posted by accyplus

I was told that the trenches were dug out during the World war two,to stop enemy
aircraft from landing,and once a upon a time there two cannons pointing out over
Accrington,they were next to stone monument.
I am also told they were vandalised and rolled down the coppice,the wooden gun mounts survived and they were still there a few years ago.

I maybe mistaken about this but I'm sure I once heard that the cannons where removed to make bullets during WW2.

[Doug]

Again excellent points bob. What as been missing is the education. Maybe people would respect what we preserve more if they fully understood the why’s, where, and when’s.

We all know about the Great War, but little about it and the realities of death in such conflicts. We know of the sacrifice, but not what it felt like to suffer the shelling, bullets and gas. Not to mention the cold, wet and fear that these man and boys faced in our name, and that is still true for us today 90 years on.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I remember the wooden cannon mounts or whatever you call them being there when I was a kid. I never knew what happened to them.

[lettie]

Originally Posted by Doug

The problem you face with this project would be the level of preservation as it is now, and how would you conduct the re excavation of the site. This process could in itself, be destructive.

Your also talking about an archaeological site that would need to be protected not only from the mindless little B******s who seek to destroy our heritage, HBC and the local vandals. But also the elements of sun, rain, snow and wind. The wildlife on the coppice would also play a part in the destruction once the archaeology is exposed.

But your main threat would be the tourists themselves. Their management of these nice people would need to be a primary concern. Picture all those dads that have read a book about the First World War demonstrating “going over the Top” to their little darlings, who following them over, destroying the trench in the process.

If people can’t have the “hands on experience”, they may not be interested in coming to see them in the first place.

I suggest a full consultative discussion should now take place in the Heritage Forum as how we can achieve this………….

I do agree with these points Doug, but it leads me to question why is it, in other countries, natural and historical phenomena are on show to the public and they don't get vandalised. I remember visiting Whakarewarewa and Hell's Gate in New Zealand. Wonderful thermal natural reserves and not a sign of misuse or vandalism. You can buy sweetcorn in Whaka and lower it into the thermal pools to cook, thus providing a "hands on" experience. These places are properly maintained and supervised. There's even a sign in Hell's Gate stating that if you throw anything is into the boiling mud pools or geysers, you will be asked to go and retrieve it.... People just don't do it because the place is properly staffed and supervised. If we had a heritage site open to vandalism it would be purely the mismanagement of security and supervision. These trenches have survived the elements for donkeys years and hand's on experience shouldn't be a problem with the right maintenence.
The only drawback is the incompetence of HBC who would expect to make money from it to fund their generous retirement packages, but put nothing back into the preservation of the site.

[Sparkologist]

If some sculpture or edifice is planted on the Coppice, it would need to be robust, to deny the local scrotes their moment of glory. The Angel of the North is one such example, another is the B for Bang sculpture currently being erected outside the City of Manchester Stadium.

Build it big, and build it tough! Or it will be demolished and covered in aerosol within weeks!

[Doug]

I agree wholeheartedly lettie. Tell me did you find these qualities on your visits to Whakarewarewa and Hell's Gate in New Zealand.

Commitment to education, a strong sense of responsibility instilled into the local community and above all else a strong sense of partnership, respect and dedication to its people by the local authorities. What is it that we are missing here?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Is it possible that the real thing we are missing is any sort of effective punishment for those who damage and vandalise?

[Acrylic-bob]

Good points Lettie. But consider this: Blackpool Pleasure Beach, Alton Towers, Longleat House, Woburn Abbey, and indeed almost any other tourist attraction you care to name, all have thousands upon thousands of visitors every year and yet have little or no problem with vandalism. The reason, as Lettie points out, is adequate supervision by both hired security staff and parents.

[Uncle Mick]

I hate to be a killjoy, but I don`t want the Coppice, my Coppice invaded by tourists, the local yobbo`s and "art" forced on us by outside agencies in return for renovating the paths. I was up there this afternoon (Saturday) in the sunshine reading my book, chatting to the few people passing by. A tranquil oasis in walking distance of my home.
A panoptican!! The local morons have already burned down Oak Hill Parks bandstand and the shelter on the top of the Coppice is in a dangerous state so no work of "art" would survive. Tellingly the Coppice is an unknown area for the local councillors excepting Ian Ormerod,though I stand to be corrected.

HANDS OFF OUR COPPICE!!

[Sparkologist]

Unfortunately, we've gone beyond retribution. The bleeding heart liberal society would want us to understand the poor little blighters. That's why we need to build things tough enough to negate their worst intentions.

[lettie]

Originally Posted by Doug

I agree wholeheartedly lettie. Tell me did you find these qualities on your visits to Whakarewarewa and Hell's Gate in New Zealand.

Commitment to education, a strong sense of responsibility instilled into the local community and above all else a strong sense of partnership, respect and dedication to its people by the local authorities. What is it that we are missing here?

All those qualities are very evident in NZ. The population are largely immigrant and are entitled to nothing. If you emigrate there, you have to be able to support yourself therefore people work hard and value living there. Many jobs are created looking after the natural surroundings and a most of the thermal reserves and other attractions charge a small fee for entry, thus providing wages for staff. Children are educated in a safe environment, bullying is rare and my nephew loves his school. They are taught how to care for the environment, how to protect themselves from the sun/heat. Outdoor activities feature largely in a childs education and gives them an appreciation for their natural surroundings. When a child starts school they are given a mentor (an older child in that school) This older child is responsible for the integration of the younger child into the school so the younger children are looked after and never bullied.
Legal action is rare, if you have an accident it's because you're gormless, ambulance chasing lawyers do not yet exist there. Nobody ever sues anyone and there is no money grabbing culture.
They do have their share of problems, the NZ nationals complain about the amount of immigrants, the Maori are brassed off due to land issues and tend to live in the poorer parts of the cities and find it difficult to get jobs, alcoholism is quite widespread amongst some Maori communities and leads them into trouble, but on the whole it's a very civilised country and provides a lovely lifestyle for those fortunate enough to be able to emigrate there and appreciate it.

[Acrylic-bob]

Sounds like a version of paradise. It seems that the 'Mother Country' has a lot to learn.

[Retlaw]

Not only the Accrington Pals trained on the Coppice. There used to be a rifle range up there, .65 Lead Musket Balls, .577 Bullets from Sneider Rifles. .450 Bullets from Martini Henry Rifles, & Mk I & Mk II .303 bulets have been found up there in the past. They were once on display in Accrington Library.

Retlaw.

[Acrylic-bob]

Sorry, Retlaw, I'm not too familiar with the different types of guns and ammunition, except in the very general sense. Could you give us some idea of the dates of these finds?