Panopticon- the alternative view

[Retlaw]

[QUOTE=Acrylic-bob]Interesting letter in the Observer this week from Mr. Les Bond who suggests that the proposed panopticon sculpture group intended for the Coppice is a waste of taxpayers and ratepayers money. He suggests instead…well, I’ll let him speak for himself:

“It is obvious that they and their supporters are oblivious to the fact that the top of the Coppice is an area of outstanding historical importance, in that, during their training, the legendary Accrington Pals created a trench system up there. Those trenches are still in evidence and are of enormous historical importance to the townand to the descendants of those members of the East Lancashire Regiment who fought in the Great War. I earnestly suggest to Hynburn Council and the people of Accrington that we steal a march on these panopticon supporters by declaring the top of the Coppice an area of outstanding local historical importance, have the trenches surveyed and excavated to their original condition and then shout to the world that Accrington is more than just football and Tiffany and bricks. We could have the trenches, real history brought to life.”



What an absolutely cracking idea ! Well done Les! :engsmil:

Not only the Accrington Pals trained on the Coppice. There used to be a rifle range up there, .65 Lead Musket Balls, .577 Bullets from Sneider Rifles. .450 Bullets from Martini Henry Rifles, & Mk I &...

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Sorry, Retlaw, I'm not too familiar with the different types of guns and ammunition, except in the very general sense. Could you give us some idea of the dates of these finds?

.65 Musket Balls were circa 1860. .577 Snieder were fired from Brown Bess Muskets & Rifles converted to Breech Loaders circa 1865-1870. The .450 Martini Henry's were issued to British troops around the time of the Zulu wars (ever watched the film Zulu, Michael Caine, Battle of Rourkes Drift.) The .303 Enfield known as the long Lee Enfield was introduced in the late 1880. They were used in the Boer War. That was the first rifle issued to the Pals in 1915. The S.M.L.E was first issued along with a new cartridge the Mk7 in 1910, but had not been made in sufficient numbers for the beginning of the 14-18 war.

Walter

[Doug]

Good stuff Retlaw, Living history in our own back yard. I love it. Just a point, wasn’t the ranges up there still active in the mid 60s, possibly for the cadets. I can remember going up there digging in sand banks for rounds? Lots of .22 and 303 and the occasion spent case.

[Acrylic-bob]

Great stuff. The question that intrigues me is why were people firing Brown Bess's up there in 1860-70 ? Or is it rather the case that the 'pals' were given anything that came to hand to commence their training with?

[Tealeaf]

It's years since I was last up on the top of the coppice, but I do seem to recall that these trenches are about 50 yards long, straight, parallel and 4 or 5 deep with gaps of 30 yards between (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)....If I am right on this, then they would bear little resemblance to the trench system as evolved by 1916 when the Pals arrived in France. In any instance, they would have had relatively little training in them given that they would have been constructed sometime between October 1914 & February 1915 when the battalion left Accy.

The real question to raise though is this - are these the only surviving WW1 practice trenches in the country? I am not aware of any others....certainly, if they are unique then there is real potential here for an educational/tourist attraction. I just hope that HBC, for once, may possibly respond to what is an imaginative idea instead of throwing money away on an endless trail of crackpot schemes.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Tealeaf

It's years since I was last up on the top of the coppice, but I do seem to recall that these trenches are about 50 yards long, straight, parallel and 4 or 5 deep with gaps of 30 yards between (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)....If I am right on this, then they would bear little resemblance to the trench system as evolved by 1916 when the Pals arrived in France. In any instance, they would have had relatively little training in them given that they would have been constructed sometime between October 1914 & February 1915 when the battalion left Accy.

The real question to raise though is this - are these the only surviving WW1 practice trenches in the country? I am not aware of any others....certainly, if they are unique then there is real potential here for an educational/tourist attraction. I just hope that HBC, for once, may possibly respond to what is an imaginative idea instead of throwing money away on an endless trail of crackpot schemes.

This along with many other excellent contributions is what’s needed to galvanise support for such important preservation. So, as anyone considered having a chat to Andrew Jackson on the subject to confirm what’s known about what’s up there, and how about an approach to HBC before the B***** do ow’t daft with it.


Suggestions………………..

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Doug

Good stuff Retlaw, Living history in our own back yard. I love it. Just a point, wasn’t the ranges up there still active in the mid 60s, possibly for the cadets. I can remember going up there digging in sand banks for rounds? Lots of .22 and 303 and the occasion spent case.

No, what you are refering to is the Hapton Scout Range. I shot in competitions on that range back in the 1950's. It was closed down in the 1960's, the range has become dangerous because of land slides at the back of the butts, a large quantity of rock had slid into the backstop causing ricochets. We did a test with some tracer & it faied its range safety certification, so the army closed it down.

Walter

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Acrylic-bob

Great stuff. The question that intrigues me is why were people firing Brown Bess's up there in 1860-70 ? Or is it rather the case that the 'pals' were given anything that came to hand to commence their training with?

No, those Brown bess's were muzzle loader & would have been fired in the 1860 & before.
Lots of towns had military volunteer rifle clubs. There were many men who joined the pals in 1914 who had previous military service. Argyle St. Barracks was already in existence long before 1914. Accrington & Church Artillery had also been going for number of years pre 1914.
Walter

[Retlaw]

Originally Posted by Doug

This along with many other excellent contributions is what’s needed to galvanise support for such important preservation. So, as anyone considered having a chat to Andrew Jackson on the subject to confirm what’s known about what’s up there, and how about an approach to HBC before the B***** do ow’t daft with it.


Suggestions………………..

Why would any one need to contact andrew jackson abut anything to do with the pals.

William Turner did the original research into the history of the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regt. Accrington Pals. I went to school with quite a of the pals survivors children & when I left school at 14, I worked alongside some of the surviviors at Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs. My fathers brother was an original pal. If you want to know some thing, the saying is "The Horses Mouth" don't go talking to his arse.

Walter

[Atarah]

Nice one Retlaw!

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Retlaw

Why would any one need to contact andrew jackson abut anything to do with the pals.

William Turner did the original research into the history of the 11th Battalion East Lancs Regt. Accrington Pals. I went to school with quite a of the pals survivors children & when I left school at 14, I worked alongside some of the surviviors at Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs. My fathers brother was an original pal. If you want to know some thing, the saying is "The Horses Mouth" don't go talking to his arse.

Walter

Very nicely put Walter,


My reference to Andrew Jackson was based on his interest on the subject and the fact that he give me information relating to my great grandfather and saved me a fortune in research costs in the process.

I am however always happy to defer to those who have clear experience of these matter.

Can you tell Walter, did you come across any of my family, William Archibald Douglas, He lost a leg in 1917 or his son, Tommy Douglas. Another one would be William “Billiy” Birtwhisle the three of them had connects with LangBridges & Howard & Bulloughs between the wars.

[Retlaw]

I have the following in my files.
William DOUGLAS
Pte. 45676. 22nd Labour Corps.
lived at 23a Stanley St Acc.

No record of a Tommy or Thomas DOUGLAS serving in WWI.
There are Two BIRTWISTLE's
William BIRTWISTLE.
Pte. L.N.L. wounded 1918. lived in Russel St Acc.

William BIRTWISTLE.
Worked at Howard & Bulloughs, from Sept 1914 Check Numb 6973.
Left for military Service 29-043-1916.

Both Lang Bridges & Howard & Bulloughs employed many thousands,
it isn't possible to remember them all, some were only known by sight.

Some people I never came into contact with. Being a Pattern Maker most of the people
I came into contact with were either in the drawing office's or the foundries & machine shops.

Some departments I never went near, remember in those days department foremen thought they were gods & if a stranger came into his shop, he was quick to question the need.

Walter.

[Doug]

[QUOTE=Retlaw]I have the following in my files.
William DOUGLAS
Pte. 45676. 22nd Labour Corps.
lived at 23a Stanley St Acc.


William Douglas (above) is my great grandfather, Walter I know before the Labour corps he was with the Kings Liverpool up until being wounded. If you have any information about him I would love to see it.

Tommy was grandad, he didn't serve in the great war, he would have been a little older than you I would say. He was an Iron Plate Moulder, Billy only past away a few years back he worked in the machine shops.

Thank you for comments Walter.

[Retlaw]

Hi Doug.
Sorry I have no more info on Wm DOUGLAS.
The info I have was from the Absent Voters List 1918.
I will upate my files to show he was formerly in th K.L.
Do you have his service number when he was in the K.L.

Walter

[Doug]

Yep, No problem Walter. I'll pm you tomorrow night with all I have. and again, thank you.