Politics.

[blazey]

I'm surprised that people see crossing over the party line as an extreme move considering that one side suggests change and the other suggests conserving what we already have, respectively in their most basic forms.

There are many famous quotes from highly intelligent individuals highlighting this basic nature of the left and right wings for us. Is it so difficult to believe that a person can easily change parties with such ease? Surely once radicals have achieved what they were aiming for then they can only become conservative, unless what they initially thought was a good idea has led to something they didn't quite predict? Same goes for a 'conservative'... how can they say they are conservative if they are trying to change things?

I'm not a political mastermind so I'm only wondering. It just seems slightly odd to me.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by blazey

I'm surprised that people see crossing over the party line as an extreme move considering that one side suggests change and the other suggests conserving what we already have, respectively in their most basic forms.

There are many famous quotes from highly intelligent individuals highlighting this basic nature of the left and right wings for us. Is it so difficult to believe that a person can easily change parties with such ease? Surely once radicals have achieved what they were aiming for then they can only become conservative, unless what they initially thought was a good idea has led to something they didn't quite predict? Same goes for a 'conservative'... how can they say they are conservative if they are trying to change things?

I'm not a political mastermind so I'm only wondering. It just seems slightly odd to me.

Changing parties: mmm ... Churchill was good at that .... I don't think that "conservative" means maintaining the status quo ... I think it has more to do with how one views things like the economy, social services, commitment to the military etc. And "radical" ... seems to me that some parties that have termed themselves radical are, in fact, conservative ... I think that this confusion was common in the Third French Republic. (Maybe all kinds of confusion were common in the Third French Republic, particularly between the ears of Maurice Gamelin). "Revolutionary" would, I think, be a better term than "radical". But even revolutionary parties become conservative ... the Soviet Union comes immediately to mind.

I do believe though, that people who cross party lines, or cross the floor of the House (we have a House of Commons too) are often acting on principle, rather than swallowing their principles in order to toe a party line that they no longer agree with. And I do think that addiction to ideology sometimes takes a back seat problems of running a country in a complex world.

Oh, and have yourself a Merry Christmas, eh and a happy and prosperous New Year ... Joyeux Noel et Bon Annee from the Great White North.

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by Eric

Changing parties: mmm ... Churchill was good at that .... I don't think that "conservative" means maintaining the status quo ... I think it has more to do with how one views things like the economy, social services, commitment to the military etc. And "radical" ... seems to me that some parties that have termed themselves radical are, in fact, conservative ... I think that this confusion was common in the Third French Republic. (Maybe all kinds of confusion were common in the Third French Republic, particularly between the ears of Maurice Gamelin). "Revolutionary" would, I think, be a better term than "radical". But even revolutionary parties become conservative ... the Soviet Union comes immediately to mind.

I do believe though, that people who cross party lines, or cross the floor of the House (we have a House of Commons too) are often acting on principle, rather than swallowing their principles in order to toe a party line that they no longer agree with. And I do think that addiction to ideology sometimes takes a back seat problems of running a country in a complex world.

Oh, and have yourself a Merry Christmas, eh and a happy and prosperous New Year ... Joyeux Noel et Bon Annee from the Great White North.

Eric thanks for the greeting and your thoughts on politics.
Politics at the age of 19 depends on which student bar you are invited to and who you fancy and what sort of a night you have had.
The world is in a mess and that is down to the dumbo's who head the governments.
I dont fully understand how politics work and I have been here a long time.
Let the young lass have her head and reflect in the coming years where she went wrong.

[andrewb]

I think half the problem here is that Conservative and conservative are not necessarily the same thing.

[lancsdave]

Originally Posted by andrewb

I think half the problem here is that Conservative and conservative are not necessarily the same thing.

Ii a survey of 100 mothers 99% agreed that Labour and labour are the same... painful

[Gordie]

Originally Posted by Eric

Changing parties: mmm ... Churchill was good at that .... I don't think that "conservative" means maintaining the status quo ... I think it has more to do with how one views things like the economy, social services, commitment to the military etc. And "radical" ... seems to me that some parties that have termed themselves radical are, in fact, conservative ... I think that this confusion was common in the Third French Republic. (Maybe all kinds of confusion were common in the Third French Republic, particularly between the ears of Maurice Gamelin). "Revolutionary" would, I think, be a better term than "radical". But even revolutionary parties become conservative ... the Soviet Union comes immediately to mind.

I do believe though, that people who cross party lines, or cross the floor of the House (we have a House of Commons too) are often acting on principle, rather than swallowing their principles in order to toe a party line that they no longer agree with. And I do think that addiction to ideology sometimes takes a back seat problems of running a country in a complex world.

Oh, and have yourself a Merry Christmas, eh and a happy and prosperous New Year ... Joyeux Noel et Bon Annee from the Great White North.

Eric if you ever run for the leadership of what ever party sails your boat I
will vote for you.I reckon you could be up there with some of our past greats if given the chance. Enoch Powell and Churchill come stright to mind

[steeljack]

Originally Posted by Gordie

Eric if you ever run for the leadership of what ever party sails your boat I
will vote for you.I reckon you could be up there with some of our past greats if given the chance. Enoch Powell and Churchill come stright to mind

Churchill was nothing more than an opportunist who changed allegiances with the wind .
Funny how few of the biographies of the "great man" mention his role as Colonial Secretary and his allowing Bomber Harris and the RAF to use poison gas against the Iraqi Kurds during the 20s (Seem to remember another chap got hung a couple of years ago for doing the same).
If anyone is to blame for the debacle in modern day Iraq it can be layed fairly and squarely at Churchills feet , it was his decision to create an artifical country out of three distinct and separate Turkish villyats, divided by race and religon. It was his decision to place one of the foriegn Hassemite princes on the Iraqi throne ,which led to the creation of Baath party and ultimatly Saddam Hussien .

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Gordie

Eric if you ever run for the leadership of what ever party sails your boat I
will vote for you.I reckon you could be up there with some of our past greats if given the chance. Enoch Powell and Churchill come stright to mind

Coming from you Gordie, would have expected Enoch Powell to be one of your heros

[Gayle]

Switching parties as a voter is quite common - the 'floating' vote is what most people count on to get elected. Traditionally women are 'floating' voters who vote for whoever they think is the right person at the right time regardless of party.

So, although I don't know what went on at the meet on Friday night, and reading between the lines a little, I'm guessing that Blazey was lambasted by some members from switching from Conservative to Labour.

If that's the case then i think that elected members in opposition have to remember that if they want to win then they need to win over anyone who is likely to switch allegiance. Blazey seems to me the ideal 'voter'.

However, if we're talking about elected members who switch party half way through their term then I'm sorry but i don't like that. If someone wishes to leave a party on principle then they shouldn't walk across the house. Many people vote based on the party itself and not the individual so you are doing the people who voted for you a diservice by switching. By all means switch party but resign from your elected post and have a bye-election first.

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Switching parties as a voter is quite common - the 'floating' vote is what most people count on to get elected. Traditionally women are 'floating' voters who vote for whoever they think is the right person at the right time regardless of party.

So, although I don't know what went on at the meet on Friday night, and reading between the lines a little, I'm guessing that Blazey was lambasted by some members from switching from Conservative to Labour.

If that's the case then i think that elected members in opposition have to remember that if they want to win then they need to win over anyone who is likely to switch allegiance. Blazey seems to me the ideal 'voter'.

However, if we're talking about elected members who switch party half way through their term then I'm sorry but i don't like that. If someone wishes to leave a party on principle then they shouldn't walk across the house. Many people vote based on the party itself and not the individual so you are doing the people who voted for you a diservice by switching. By all means switch party but resign from your elected post and have a bye-election first.

That is what should happen in a perfect world Gayle, but unfortunately politics and politicians are by no means perfect and never will be

[blazey]

If I was a politician sat in the House of Commons and I was already on the bring of defecting and my party said something to finally tip me over the edge, I think I would walk out, not attempt to walk across to the other party. What if nobody wants me

As for my politics, I've been Labour since October and nobody has really made a massive deal on it on here but since I started posting more regularly again it seems to be the topic of the conversation the moment a thread goes a bit quiet!

I was a Conservative voter all last year at University and anyone who knows Lancaster's college system will know I am in the socialist college and took a full year of abuse for being 'the tory'. In fact I still take that in the Labour Club there is also 'the lib dem' (though I'd like to add he is slightly worse because he left lib dems a few days before the lib dem club fell apart). I was independent of all political groups at university last year and drank in the bars with both sides of the line. It didn't particularly bother me.

Even now my views haven't particularly changed. None of the parties match my views perfectly so it doesn't particularly matter which I'm in really but if I am going to work for the uni and promote opportunities for all then my politics should ideally represent that as best as possible.

The Labour Club at uni is old Labour so I'm currently alienated by them along with two other members but I still drink in my bar as usual. It has always had written above the bar on the chalkboards that tories aren't welcome to sit at the bar and I always have done in the same seat!

I will do exactly as someone said though when it comes to the general election and vote for who is the best, maybe not just at that particular time, but most consistently. Sadly the Labour Club at University makes me reluctant to show any loyalty to the party but I think too much loyalty in politics is quite damaging anyway.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Gordie

Eric if you ever run for the leadership of what ever party sails your boat I
will vote for you.I reckon you could be up there with some of our past greats if given the chance. Enoch Powell and Churchill come stright to mind

Nah, Harlold Wilson ... or my political hero Tommy Douglas

[Taggy]

We usually vote to bring into power someone whose ideas we believe in, or to keep out someone whose ideas we dont. But lets face it whichever way we vote, if we are totally honest, in the long run dont we always end up dissapointed. I think most people enter politics with honourable ideas and motives. However once entrenched into the "system" they either become downtrodden and disheartend by red tape, or corrupted by power. Some of them of course are just completely incompetant. Now when you get the combination of the Corrupt leading the incompetant or visa versa we end up with a situation where no one can see the wood for the trees. The Greed of certain people is then allowed to flourish. We've seen this also in our once respected financial institutions. It used to be said that Estate Agents were our most hated profession, Perhaps they now come third behind Politicians and Bankers!

Best Regards - Taggy

[Eric]

Going out on a limb here, I think that the only person ever to enter parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes

[Taggy]

...and then only because he'd been upset by the Hokey Cokey!! Lol!

Best Regards - Taggy