Poll : Hyndburn or Accrington & District?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Originally Posted by Lilly

I voted in favour of the change as I think it will be good for the area.Don't all shout at once but how do we know we will pay for it via our council tax? Maybe we won't,as PB stated in the Observer.People fretting over the cost may be worrying unnecessarily.We don't know where the money will come from do we?We're just assuming it will go on our council tax,we don't actually know because no-one's told us.We'll only know when we get our bills next year I suppose.Then we can start getting irate if it goes up a lot!

PB has stated specifically that it won't lead to an increase in our council tax which of course then gives people the impression that it isn't going to cost us anything. However, look at it logically ad you will realise that nothing in life is free, least of all the rebranding of a borough council.

So where does that leave us? Will the council renaming fairies pay for everything? Will we get a grant from central Government to cover the costs? Will PB send Gayle cap in hand to the lottery fund? Or, and I believe this to be the most likely scenario, will there be cuts left right and centre in other council expenditure and will we have to go without necessities in order to finance a whim?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Lilly

how do we know we will pay for it via our council tax? Maybe we won't,as PB stated in the Observer.

Earlier in the year you slagged off the Labour candidate's behaviour at the election count in May, so the next time you bump into Peter you can ask him.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by katex

Yah know Cashman, think I will vote you hypocrite of the month .. you are the first to complain should the 'Hyndburn Council' be seen to wasting your hard earned money from their enforced tax pool, but 'cause you live in Accy doesn't matter to you at all !! and name change is more nostalgic to you than monetary common sense.

Paris .. where are you ?? Put this man on pobs for the next few days .. know you are a good cook and hit him where it hurts ...

Didnt want the change way back, have not changed my view on this matter, monetary matters do not change my principals sorry, if thats hypocritical the real hypocrits are the people that never wanted Hyndburn in the first place- but do now cos its gonna cost em.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It wasn't a 'change way back' - it was a creation. We didn't have a name for the borough council. We'd had the individual names for all the individual councils and then when they were united under one umbrella it needed a name. The question then was do we give it a whole new name or name it after the largest town in the borough. The decision was made to give it a whole new name which I believe was the right decision because that did not imply that any of the individual towns was any greater or any less than the others. If at that time there had been a majority in favour of the name "Accrington and District" then I wouldn't have minded as much even if I didn't agree with the choice because it was going to cost us the same whatever it was called.

I admire your attitude of standing by your principles Cashman and in situations where that would only involve you then I would defend your right to stand by any principle you like whatever the cost. Unfortunately in this particular case the cost does not only affect you it will affect every person living in the borough and the council has carefully avoided the financial issue either because they haven't actually thought it through or they have and they don't want to frighten the living daylights out of us.

If they put up the rents for shops and market stalls to cover the cost do you still think that would be worth it? If they allow eyesores to fall further into disrepair because they haven't got the money for repair and renewal do you still think it would be worth it? I wish the council would be upfront about this and admit how much it's going to cost and exactly where they see the money coming from. All they have told us so far is that they have set aside £20,000 and that it won't mean an increase in our council tax.

Why is it wrong or hypocritical to want to stop our council wasting money? There are so many things we moan about the council not doing because it claims it can't afford to - what about the selling off of assets which was complained about in the past? What about not being able to afford to take down the Christmas lights when they were still dangling away there in mid summer? How can this council which has been so strapped for cash suddenly justify spending on something which is totally unnecessary?

I really do find this difficult to understand.

I also think that it's easy enough for people from outside the borough to say yes go ahead, do it and never mind the cost because the cost will not affect them.

Any chance of a real look at the financial implications Graham?

I've just noticed on the BBC website that one person from Clayton le Moors, in favour of the change, says "Yes go back to the original names" so he/she obviously hasn't even understood the proposal as it is nothing to do with going back to any original names.

[Wynonie Harris]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I also think that it's easy enough for people from outside the borough to say yes go ahead, do it and never mind the cost because the cost will not affect them.

As I've said, I support the change from Hyndburn to a name incorporating Accrington. I've given my reasons for it, whether you agree with them or not. I supported it when I lived there and I would support it if I still lived there.

However, I don't like the idea that because I don't live in the borough anymore, my views are somehow less worthy. It seems a dangerous precedent to set and certainly makes me feel like an "outsider" - not a pleasant feeling and something I've never experienced on AccyWeb before!

[WillowTheWhisp]

Your views are perfectly valid Wynonie. Everyone's views are valid. My view is merely that it's easier to have a view when it doesn't actually affect one personally in the pocket or ameneties regions.

It's like me having a view on something which Luton council propose. It wouldn't affect me personally but it may well affect members of our family living down there and I would think of the implications for them first of all and consider that perhaps their views should be taken into consideration before mine because it actually affects them and not me.

Or another example is regarding schools. I may well have opinions on something affecting a school in the borough but if my children don't actually go to that school then I wouldn't expect my views to rank alongside the views of those whose children do attend that school.

I'm sorry if this offends any AccyWebbers who don't live in Hyndburn. I didn't mean it that way. It's just that it seems logical to me.

[cashman]

Originally Posted by WillowTheWhisp

I admire your attitude of standing by your principles Cashman and in situations where that would only involve you then I would defend your right to stand by any principle you like whatever the cost. Unfortunately in this particular case the cost does not only affect you it will affect every person living in the borough and the council has carefully avoided the financial issue either because they haven't actually thought it through or they have and they don't want to frighten the living daylights out of us.

If they put up the rents for shops and market stalls to cover the cost do you still think that would be worth it? If they allow eyesores to fall further into disrepair because they haven't got the money for repair and renewal do you still think it would be worth it? I wish the council would be upfront about this and admit how much it's going to cost and exactly where they see the money coming from. All they have told us so far is that they have set aside £20,000 and that it won't mean an increase in our council tax.

Why is it wrong or hypocritical to want to stop our council wasting money? There are so many things we moan about the council not doing because it claims it can't afford to - what about the selling off of assets which was complained about in the past? What about not being able to afford to take down the Christmas lights when they were still dangling away there in mid summer? How can this council which has been so strapped for cash suddenly justify spending on something which is totally unnecessary?

I really do find this difficult to understand.

I also think that it's easy enough for people from outside the borough to say yes go ahead, do it and never mind the cost because the cost will not affect them.

Any chance of a real look at the financial implications Graham?

so what are we saying here? i should change my view,because it affects others? thats a bad road to go down in my view.i,m still in favour of capital punishment n that certainly affects others, as does many views of many people on differant subjects, the market rents are too dear now- thats why our markets dying- spending on something thats totally unnecessary is your view willow n thats fair enough, i cannot accept that as being unncessary,when someone that has acess to these figures produces them, then i will study it.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by garinda

By the way Cyfr, Peter's twenty grand will only buy four road signs, the other twenty or so will be extra.

Maybe we could get together with some laminated sheets of artwork designed by you and reconstructed by me in MS Paint, we'd save them thousands!

[WillowTheWhisp]

It's obviously just a personal thing with me but I do tend to look at the bigger picture and how it affects other people not just myself. For instance all the companies and organisations with 'Hyndburn' in their name. I do not belong to any of them and yet I consider it valid to look at the implications for them too.

That's just me. It's just the way I am.

If you only look at things as how they affect you personally then you are entitled to do that. It's the way you are and I don't suppose you will change your approach to life any more than I will change mine.

It's obviously not something we are going to agree on Cashman. A bit like the way I disagree with Bulseyebarb's view of US welfare health care.

However, I do think some people have given their opinions, not only here but also elsewhere such as the Observer and the BBC site, without being in possession of the full facts or realising the full implications. If after learning that it will have an impact in other areas which may receive less from our council taxes in order to find the money for these changes I hope you don't end up complaining about the things that aren't being done because the council can't afford them.

[garinda]

I didn't comment on anyone's views in the thread debating the issues regarding the proposed change of name, based on their location. As stated earlier, everyone's views are valid.

However, when Britcliffe is claiming in the press overwhelming support for the change, because of online polls, I think where those people live, and whether they are going to be directly affected, does matter.

Online polls aren't a universal referendum, and are open to abuse. Judging by the location of a lot of people who have commented on the Observer's site, they live abroad, and that is relevant.

Don't forget that a lot of people who live in the borough, particularly the elderly, who daily risk life and limb by having to to walk on the appalling, and disgracefully maintained pavements in Hyndburn, may not have access to the internet, and thus their views aren't being listened to because Britcliffe is setting too much store by the results of online polls.

By the way, I agree with earlier comments. The way the options in this poll are weighted is unfair, and thus make it's results questionable, and making it's findings useless when challenging other polls, such as the Observer's.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by garinda

Wonderful stuff this freedom of information malarky.

You have not got the figure that way. They do not answer you that fast.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The wording of this poll was meant to be a tongue in cheek reaction to the reference by Peter Britcliffe to various other online polls. I for one wasn't aware of those online polls and so didn't vote in them. That's one less vote for the 'keep it as it is' option. How many other people were unaware of them?

Online polls are also open to abuse as it is impossible to ensure that the same person hasn't voted more than once.

I wouldn't for one moment assume than any poll on here would carry any weight in opposing an Observer poll however it was worded because we are not a cross section of Hyndburn Residents nor have those responding to the poll been analysed in any way to ensure that we cover all age groups, sexes and ethnicity equally.

How would you get a fair and unbiased view? I suppose the council could call a public meeting and allow people to vote there, but then you'd have the problem of the elderly and infirm being unable to get to the meeting.

When all is said and done the council will probably do what it wants to do anyway and convince itself that it's doing what the majority of us want whether that is true or not. And the vast majority of people will just sit back and let it happen because they don't really care one way or t'other. They'll just moan about the state of things at some later date and wonder why the council can't do whatever it is they can't do when they can't afford to do it.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Neil

You have not got the figure that way. They do not answer you that fast.

I mentioned freedom and information, no where did I mention Act.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

Maybe we could get together with some laminated sheets of artwork designed by you and reconstructed by me in MS Paint, we'd save them thousands!

We did see Peter Britcliffe in the paper, showing off the new crests for each town, costing what we don't know, they aren't done for free.

But I presume we are also to have a new logo, because it's a new entity, for the newly named Accrington and Districts Borough Council?

How much is that alone going to cost, judging by the expense that the lovely logo for the Olympic Games cost us?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by garinda

Online polls aren't a universal referendum, and are open to abuse.

I wonder how many people who know the Councillors/Officers etc who are in favour of the change voted yes in the Observers online poll?