Post Office Closures

[g jones]

Everyone has contributed to the closure of Post Offices. I don't particularly agree with childish politics in opposition, whether that be us or the Tories this time.

The Post Office franchise was eroded from the early 80's with Governments removing services and banks competing for business. Stamps sold at Petrol Stations and other outlets. Maggie called it choice, competition and free enterprise. I think Gordon calls it the same. Pensions, TV Licences, Car Tax. The internet significantly too. And people want public bodies/companies to be more efficient, find savings, cut out waste.

We have followed all these to the detriment of the local sub Post Office. To the Tories I would say, be careful what you wish for... free enterprise has no sympathy for social enterprise. That irony, seeing Clr Britcliffe run a particularly nauseating campaign makes people turn against him.

Greg makes a good point too. Who is going to run these sub Post Office's? The sub post masters and mistresses have opted not stay open, but take the payola and do one. Which one of the protestors out there is willing to take on a risky business themself?

In the end the public have used freedom to choose to choose alternative providers of services. This is not my view. I think there could have been more thought, a better compromise, some subsidy. Tory Essex County Council are going to subsidise and save some Post Office's. Politically ironic of course.

Even here in Hyndburn The Council Policy is to promote D/D all times and reduce to payments at Post Office's. 60,000-80,000 Council Tax transactions per year disappear from Post Offices as a direct result of Council Policies. In December there were just 3,500 Council Tax transactions at local Post Offices. 23% down from well over over 50% a few years ago.

Clr Britcliffe's own policy is encourage people to pay Council Tax and Housing Rent via D/D. This policy is supported by a barrage of literature that gets sent out with
• Council Tax
• and Council Tax reminders if they don't get you first time
• and we also use D/D notice prompts
• we try always to remind Counter Callers of the benefits of DD
• we send out Leaflets and place them in prominent positions
• and we do not at any time promote the Payment Card Scheme at PO's
• refusing to put Giro payment forms at the foot of bills

The costs and savings to the Council are as follows
Post Office (and some retail outlets) Card Scheme; 51p per card transaction + £1.30 per card
Direct Debit 10p
Bank Giro £1.80.

It's amazing to see local Tories protesting with placards when their policies have contributed to the closures. (Obviously we all know now as Clr Britcliffe accidently sent a Tory email out to everyone saying how national issues at the local elections would gain them an advantage over Labour - it was followed by an apologetic one 5 minutes later!)

Since leaving the Council, Hyndburn Homes has issued every tenant with a Post Office Payment Card.

I did try and put some suggestions forward but was told to shut up in full council and barred from putting them forward. One was the Big Card Scheme which amalgamates several payments. I sopke with Hyndburn Homes and they liked the idea as do our officers and there is potential to extend the scheme.

Post Office's Services in other buildings, maybe Council subsidy like Essex County Council and importantly. A clear focus on which Post Office's wish to stay open as some actually want take the Post Office payoff and close. So let's save the one's that can be best saved. That would help.

Working together is another. Oak Lea cash machine was saved because Labour and Tories worked together, even though the Post Office was closed.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by g jones

Everyone has contributed to the closure of Post Offices. I don't particularly agree with childish politics in opposition, whether that be us or the Tories this time.

The Post Office franchise was eroded from the early 80's with Governments removing services and banks competing for business. Stamps sold at Petrol Stations and other outlets. Maggie called it choice, competition and free enterprise. I think Gordon calls it the same. Pensions, TV Licences, Car Tax. The internet significantly too. And people want public bodies/companies to be more efficient, find savings, cut out waste.

We have followed all these to the detriment of the local sub Post Office. To the Tories I would say, be careful what you wish for... free enterprise has no sympathy for social enterprise. That irony, seeing Clr Britcliffe run a particularly nauseating campaign makes people turn against him.

Greg makes a good point too. Who is going to run these sub Post Office's? The sub post masters and mistresses have opted not stay open, but take the payola and do one. Which one of the protestors out there is willing to take on a risky business themself?

In the end the public have used freedom to choose to choose alternative providers of services. This is not my view. I think there could have been more thought, a better compromise, some subsidy. Tory Essex County Council are going to subsidise and save some Post Office's. Politically ironic of course.

Even here in Hyndburn The Council Policy is to promote D/D all times and reduce to payments at Post Office's. 60,000-80,000 Council Tax transactions per year disappear from Post Offices as a direct result of Council Policies. In December there were just 3,500 Council Tax transactions at local Post Offices. 23% down from well over over 50% a few years ago.

Clr Britcliffe's own policy is encourage people to pay Council Tax and Housing Rent via D/D. This policy is supported by a barrage of literature that gets sent out with
• Council Tax
• and Council Tax reminders if they don't get you first time
• and we also use D/D notice prompts
• we try always to remind Counter Callers of the benefits of DD
• we send out Leaflets and place them in prominent positions
• and we do not at any time promote the Payment Card Scheme at PO's
• refusing to put Giro payment forms at the foot of bills

The costs and savings to the Council are as follows
Post Office (and some retail outlets) Card Scheme; 51p per card transaction + £1.30 per card
Direct Debit 10p
Bank Giro £1.80.

It's amazing to see local Tories protesting with placards when their policies have contributed to the closures. (Obviously we all know now as Clr Britcliffe accidently sent a Tory email out to everyone saying how national issues at the local elections would gain them an advantage over Labour - it was followed by an apologetic one 5 minutes later!)

Since leaving the Council, Hyndburn Homes has issued every tenant with a Post Office Payment Card.

I did try and put some suggestions forward but was told to shut up in full council and barred from putting them forward. One was the Big Card Scheme which amalgamates several payments. I sopke with Hyndburn Homes and they liked the idea as do our officers and there is potential to extend the scheme.

Post Office's Services in other buildings, maybe Council subsidy like Essex County Council and importantly. A clear focus on which Post Office's wish to stay open as some actually want take the Post Office payoff and close. So let's save the one's that can be best saved. That would help.

Working together is another. Oak Lea cash machine was saved because Labour and Tories worked together, even though the Post Office was closed.

So when Labour are attacked because they're voting in parliament for closures and not voting for suspending closures for review, we're childish, but when you attack what the Tories did 30 years ago it's absolutely fine? Give me a break, the hypocracy is unreal.

I get a feeling head office has told Labour to combat any criticisms of what they're doing nationally and locally by accusing the opposition of being childish. Real good tactic!

I'm all for working together but you're really not helping it.

[Bonnyboy]

Dunno if a link was posted before in this thread, Jack Straw seems to like his local Post Office even a nice piccy of him holding a poster

[Royboy39]

Originally Posted by katex

I rather like the suggestion of a mobile Post Office which calls on areas, that will shortly be bereft of a local one, for 1 day a week for 8 hours. Not much 1 day you might say, but the very elderly are creatures of habit, and used to collecting their pension on a certain day .. or one day in the month.

Could possibly do 2 stops in one area e.g. Hapton (which is all on a hill) and would be easier for people to get to.

That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?
Why dont the government look after their own? subsidise if at all possible to keep the network of social amenities intact.
I would think that is a better idea than paying MP's huge expense bills to carry out crazy schemes to score noddy points.
I understand rightly or wrongly that it cost's more to run the European Parliament for one month than it would cost to subsidise the post office for five years...........where do we go from here.......what's next to go...not much left............Banks in trouble......Pound in trouble...........Brown having to borrow billions of pounds to keep the country afloat......Shares I have no trouble with...You takes a gamble that's your affair.....If you back a horse and it comes second you loose your money.
Sorry for this diatribe but let's get real........Maybe it wont reflect in Ossy
in the near future....The price of petrol is a start....where do we go from here?

[Bonnyboy]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?
Why dont the government look after their own? subsidise if at all possible to keep the network of social amenities intact.
I would think that is a better idea than paying MP's huge expense bills to carry out crazy schemes to score noddy points.
I understand rightly or wrongly that it cost's more to run the European Parliament for one month than it would cost to subsidise the post office for five years...........where do we go from here.......what's next to go...not much left............Banks in trouble......Pound in trouble...........Brown having to borrow billions of pounds to keep the country afloat......Shares I have no trouble with...You takes a gamble that's your affair.....If you back a horse and it comes second you loose your money.
Sorry for this diatribe but let's get real........Maybe it wont reflect in Ossy
in the near future....The price of petrol is a start....where do we go from here?

Pretty much agree with all of that

[katex]

Originally Posted by Royboy39

That would give licence to the 'Handslapped minority' with criminal tendencies to target the mobile and put the staff of this unfortunate venture at considerable risk unless they were protected by a police officer which would make this idea prohibitive in the extreme?

Well, am not commenting on the rest of your 'diatribe' Royboy39, but sub-Post Offices have always been a main target for criminal tendencies.. as our communtiy learnt to their cost in Baxenden. Still feel would be financially viable to have security on board, and en route like the Post Office vans with the sticker on the back that states "Police cars are following this van" (and do).

[blazey]

I voted no, if they aren't making profit then they aren't being used by enough people.

The services that PO's provide have been taken on by other businesses or institutions mainly, and so the use of PO's has decreased.

A Post Office should be available within a certain radius in my opinion accessible by public transport, NOT on foot. With the correct placement of PO's there should be no reason for people to struggle to access the PO and hopefully it would also get rid of the smaller ones that are only being used by a few individuals.

Also, there would not necessarily need to be a major loss in jobs as bigger post offices located this way would be used by more people, and so the staff coul just be transferred to these in most cases. Obviously there will be a few losses but effectiveness in terms of service and financially is the ideal outcome, not just service. We can't afford to be throwing money away and spending money on revival of a fallen business.

But I know Cyfr hates this because he shouted at me earlier, and I can't keep coming back on this argument because as I have already said to him, I just don't really care enough about the PO.

So that's my worth on the subject.

[jambutty]

I’ve tried to look at this issue from both sides of the coin and each side has a valid case to put.

In a nutshell some 2,500 sub post offices are subsidised by the taxpayer or in other words they are losing money. With the best will in the world you cannot run a business at a loss for long. Sooner or later the crunch has to come. In this money-orientated society that crunch has arrived for some 2,500 post offices.

Sub post offices, especially in rural areas, are a real asset to the elderly for pensions and bill paying. But being elderly they are closer to life’s end than the younger people and thus will drop out of the equation in time.

Arguments against the closures have been put forward to suggest that the elderly may not have a bank account so getting their pensions paid into their bank account and paying bills by DD are not possible. Pensioners cannot remember PIN numbers easily. Nonsense! I’m close to 71 and I can remember my PIN numbers. In any case those few who genuinely cannot remember PIN’s and other things are likely to have a carer who will collect their pension etc on their behalf.

My local post office at Scotland Bank Terrace in Darwen closed about two years ago, I think it was, and now I have to use the main post office in the town centre to collect my pension and pay certain bills. But it is no hardship to travel that extra half mile or so. But then I do have a car. Others without their own transport would withdraw their pension and then catch a bus into town to do some shopping. Instead of walking to the local post office and then catching a bus to town to do some shopping, they now catch a bus from near home. So what is the difference?

So on balance it is right to close certain sub post offices if they are not viable providing that in doing so the next nearest post office is not a long distance away and is on a bus route.

Rural post offices deserve special treatment even it I means running them at a loss.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

So when Labour are attacked because they're voting in parliament for closures and not voting for suspending closures for review, we're childish, but when you attack what the Tories did 30 years ago it's absolutely fine? Give me a break, the hypocracy is unreal.

I get a feeling head office has told Labour to combat any criticisms of what they're doing nationally and locally by accusing the opposition of being childish. Real good tactic!

I'm all for working together but you're really not helping it.

I think this argument makes no sense. Labour may have attacked the Tories 30 years ago but 150 years ago Tories sent children up chimney and down coal mines. I don't believe the vast majority of Tories would subscribe to that now. I think you even accept now the minimum wage was right after saying it was wrong. That's life. It's about now and the future... the past we can only learn lessons from.

I would like to think every time I go into a meeting I won't meet people putting across your line of thinking Cyfr, stuck in the old Tory/Labour past. That people will judge an issue on it's merits.

Everyone has contributed to the Post Office closures. Councils, Governments and shoppers. The ONLY organisation I can think of that has reversed this policy locally is Hyndburn Homes issuing all tenants with PO payment cards.

The only hyprocites are Conservatives waving placards. Not because they started the ball rolling in the 80's but because they have made the ball of Post Office closure's roll even faster in Hyndburn in the last few years. And the secret plots and emails, the lack of any care as to what is actually happening and what can be saved.

The Conservatives have behaved irresponsibly over this and I would be delighted to stand on a orange crate with Clr Britcliffe outside the town hall and have an open public debate... The public deserve to know the truth not spin and secret emails from Tory Central Office.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by jambutty

I’ve tried to look at this issue from both sides of the coin and each side has a valid case to put.

In a nutshell some 2,500 sub post offices are subsidised by the taxpayer or in other words they are losing money. With the best will in the world you cannot run a business at a loss for long. Sooner or later the crunch has to come. In this money-orientated society that crunch has arrived for some 2,500 post offices.

Sub post offices, especially in rural areas, are a real asset to the elderly for pensions and bill paying. But being elderly they are closer to life’s end than the younger people and thus will drop out of the equation in time.

Arguments against the closures have been put forward to suggest that the elderly may not have a bank account so getting their pensions paid into their bank account and paying bills by DD are not possible. Pensioners cannot remember PIN numbers easily. Nonsense! I’m close to 71 and I can remember my PIN numbers. In any case those few who genuinely cannot remember PIN’s and other things are likely to have a carer who will collect their pension etc on their behalf.

My local post office at Scotland Bank Terrace in Darwen closed about two years ago, I think it was, and now I have to use the main post office in the town centre to collect my pension and pay certain bills. But it is no hardship to travel that extra half mile or so. But then I do have a car. Others without their own transport would withdraw their pension and then catch a bus into town to do some shopping. Instead of walking to the local post office and then catching a bus to town to do some shopping, they now catch a bus from near home. So what is the difference?

So on balance it is right to close certain sub post offices if they are not viable providing that in doing so the next nearest post office is not a long distance away and is on a bus route.

Rural post offices deserve special treatment even it I means running them at a loss.

An excellent post.

I would veer on the side of subsidy but accept the argument. We have lost 80-90% of corner shops in Peel over 30-40 years so Post Office's were clearly going to come under similar economic pressure outside of the PO franchise business.

The PO on Av Parade, whilst within a mile, is heavily used. I suppose the market will say, 'use it or lose it'.

[andrewb]

Originally Posted by g jones

I think this argument makes no sense. Labour may have attacked the Tories 30 years ago but 150 years ago Tories sent children up chimney and down coal mines. I don't believe the vast majority of Tories would subscribe to that now. I think you even accept now the minimum wage was right after saying it was wrong. That's life. It's about now and the future... the past we can only learn lessons from.

I would like to think every time I go into a meeting I won't meet people putting across your line of thinking Cyfr, stuck in the old Tory/Labour past. That people will judge an issue on it's merits.

Everyone has contributed to the Post Office closures. Councils, Governments and shoppers. The ONLY organisation I can think of that has reversed this policy locally is Hyndburn Homes issuing all tenants with PO payment cards.

The only hyprocites are Conservatives waving placards. Not because they started the ball rolling in the 80's but because they have made the ball of Post Office closure's roll even faster in Hyndburn in the last few years. And the secret plots and emails, the lack of any care as to what is actually happening and what can be saved.

The Conservatives have behaved irresponsibly over this and I would be delighted to stand on a orange crate with Clr Britcliffe outside the town hall and have an open public debate... The public deserve to know the truth not spin and secret emails from Tory Central Office.

You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!

[jaysay]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!

Well Cyfr your 42 years younger than me and I couldn't have put it better myself, even when I was in my prime

[shakermaker]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!

...and 2001
...and 2005


Good post Cyfr, even if it is a tad sensationalised towards the end. (I know it's just all that political angst so I'll let you off )

Can't believe I'm agreeing with a bloody Tory. Sort it out Mr Jones.

Greg? Greeeeeegggg!!??

[garinda]

The cost to us, the tax payers, of funding unprofitable Post Offices, is £4 million pounds per day.

How long is that sustainable, and how much higher would that figure have to increase, as more and more people chose to do their business elsewhere, before a line is drawn?

I'd much rather see that daily four million pounds invested in education, health, or community centres, if all people want is somewhere to meet their neighbours.

The only other comparison I can think of, where private, unprofitable businesses, recieve such generous subsidies, are the funds available to farmers via the E.E.C., but of course which is ultimately funded by the tax payer. A practice I also strongly disagree with.

[g jones]

Originally Posted by Cyfr

You blame the Tories in the 80's in your first post on page 6, so I respond telling you to think about the future, what's happening now, the hypocrisy in parliament of Labour MP's voting for closures but then campaigning locally for offices to stay open, rather than constantly referring to the Thatcher years as Labour too often blame for everything, even when they've been in power for 11 years.

You then take my argument, you quite frankly plagiarise it and make it your own! Trying to blame me for talking too much about the past and not the present. How ridiculous! I hope the voters can see you for who you are.

This is exactly why people are so apathetic about politics, you are exactly the reason people are so turned off and why voter turnout is so low now.

Hypocritical, past your sell by date, a spin politician twisting peoples words to make yourself look good in any situation. We need a new politics, we need to work together, we need to be transparent and open, not treating the voters like idiots, people can see you're completely twisting my argument to your own benefit, we might have fallen for it in 1997 but no more!

You seemed to have stopped talking about the issues and started a slur campaign. And then you switch to a rallying call for honesty and truth. In pointing out the Tories on pg 6 I also pointed out Labour, so please don's attempt to con the readers by not expressing what was written in a fair way.

I don't agree with national politicians batting for both teams. Labour politicians in this case and more often than not many cases. eg.Hazel Blears on hospitals. I was embarrassed by their actions. What you say about me is just ridiculous, insulting and demeaning.

I joined the Council because I was fed up with people always trying to pull the wool over ordinary people, Labour and Tory. That was my motivation. Nothing has changed.

I accept Conservatives like your good self are there to do everything possible to shoot me down. It's what old school politics is about. Ignore the issues and throw mud.

I agree with Cameron on sleazy politics. But Blair said the same! I think I am one of the few that believe Cameron actually does mean it, I never thought Blair did, and I admire him for that. If we have a Conservative Government, I hope Cameron's legacy is that he cleaned up politics.

The real world is events beyond your control. Such as Derek Conway paying family members. Cameron dealt with it well. I didn't hold it over Cameron personally and I think to a large extent, you shouldn't hold me to account so cyncially when it has little to do with me in reality.

Hyndburn politics is morally corrupt. Except this time it's coming from the blue corner. I don't care about your view on this as it's an issue of personal moral principle, and something that got me into politics in the beginning. We have to clean Hyndburn politics up and make sure this corruption never happens again.

I guess your on Britcliffe's team and we'll just have to disagree.