Prisoners to get the vote

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Gayle

No, I'd keep them locked in their cells so that honest, decent citizens never caught sight of them and only allowed out for a brief walk around the yard once a day for exercise.

So mother's who have wrongly been incarcerated for killing their children, or people imprisoned for non-payement of council tax would receive the same draconian punishments?

All sounds a bit too much like the old Tories return to Victorian values to me.


What next work houses for the poor?

[Gayle]

For a start it was an attempt at humour because I thought you were joking along with me.

Secondly, if they have been incarcerted for killing their children at what point can you define whether it's wrongly or not? Surely anyone proven to be wrongly incarcerated would be freed and would therefore get all priviledges restored.

Finally, you've taken a point and twisted it again. My point is that prisoners are in there for a reason and that is not to get the priviledges that we none prisoners get - voting is not a basic need therefore, prisoners should not be allowed to vote. Prison should be a punishment and a time for reflection on their crimes. It should not be some woolly liberal fun house where they get the same freedoms as the rest of us.

I'll stand by this point as long as you want to keep arguing it but you're not changing my stance on the original issue by bringing in further convoluted arguments.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Gayle

For a start it was an attempt at humour because I thought you were joking along with me.

Secondly, if they have been incarcerted for killing their children at what point can you define whether it's wrongly or not? Surely anyone proven to be wrongly incarcerated would be freed and would therefore get all priviledges restored.

Finally, you've taken a point and twisted it again. My point is that prisoners are in there for a reason and that is not to get the priviledges that we none prisoners get - voting is not a basic need therefore, prisoners should not be allowed to vote. Prison should be a punishment and a time for reflection on their crimes. It should not be some woolly liberal fun house where they get the same freedoms as the rest of us.

I'll stand by this point as long as you want to keep arguing it but you're not changing my stance on the original issue by bringing in further convoluted arguments.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. There were three high profile cases last year were women were freed after wrongly being accused of killing their children. Yes their freedom could be restored, but not their democratic right to vote in any elections they happened to have missed, were the sad case of cot deaths was interpreted as infanticide by a now struck off doctor.

Like I posted earlier, the best criminals are those outside the prison system. Each of whom has at present have the right to vote.

[grannyclaret]

yes ,look how long Shipman was undetected ,,,how many times did he vote?

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Gayle

Prison should be a punishment and a time for reflection on their crimes. It should not be some woolly liberal fun house where they get the same freedoms as the rest of us.

So whilst incarcerated prisoners should have no access to books, education etc?


Someone who has committed crimes to fund a drug habit, should spend their sentence without perhaps learning a skill or a trade, in the hope that they could perhaps be reintergrated into society on their release, rather than being released to carry on as they were before?

'Woolly liberal'

[Gayle]

I appreciate that there are people in prison who have been wrongly incarcerated but if you try to put provisos dependent on crime you would have more problems than if you just put a blanket ban on prisoners being able to vote or not whilst in prison. For instance, you argue the case for the wrongly incarcerated woman who is in there because she is believed to have killed her child yet didn't - how do you decide whether she should have the vote between her and some woman who is mentally unstable and really did kill her child? Whether she did or didn't, the fact that she is tried and found guilty means that she is in prison for killing a child therefore should not have anything beyond basic rights.

Education is recognised, I would say, as a basic right for all people so if a prisoner wishes to better themselves then they should be allowed it. There is no debate about whether education should be removed from prisons and I understand that many prisons, if not all, run educational courses.

So I am not arguing for the removal of those rights. Undoubtedly you'll now start arguing that I'm moving the goalposts of 'basic rights' - I'm not, I just didn't feel it necessary to list everything that is considered a basic right in the first instance.

Plus, I am not arguing about the definition of basic rights, I am arguing that whatever the definition there is no way that voting can be considered a basic right - being able to vote is not an essential in ones life, you do not need to vote to be able to exist. Therefore, it is one of the many priviledges that should be removed when someone is imprisoned!

[Madhatter]

You cant give prisoners all the rights they're entitled to on the outside, otherwise whats the point in them being in their? esp on the grounds of they might later be found innocent. You could also argue that people who have emmigrated should still have the right to vote incase they decide to move back

[garinda]

According to today's Observer, and taken from recently published Government figures-

Reoffending costs society at least £11bn a year.

Former prisoners commit one in five of every crime.

Three out of every five prisoners reconvicted within two years of being released from prison.



Clearly something's not working at the moment, and yes I do think you've moved the goal posts, first by stating that all but 'basic rights' should be issued to prisoners, and then saying that prisoners should be allowed to educate themselves at tax payers expense, a 'right' a lot of people on the outside don't have the privilege, or are able to afford.

[garinda]

Originally Posted by Madhatter

You cant give prisoners all the rights they're entitled to on the outside, otherwise whats the point in them being in their? esp on the grounds of they might later be found innocent. You could also argue that people who have emmigrated should still have the right to vote incase they decide to move back

'Great Britain also recently made it easier for British citizens abroad to register to vote back home. As of 1 April, British nationals living abroad can apply to register to vote by post; file a registration form with the signature of any British subject, rather than that of someone who knows them personally; and register to vote at any time of year under a so-called rolling electoral register system. Under previous law, British citizens wishing to apply for registration as overseas electors also had to have been registered at a UK address within 20 years before their application; that requirement has now been reduced to 15 years.'


All the hundreds of thousands of people who have fled to the sun can still cast their vote here if they so wish.

[Madhatter]

I think thats wrong too. Electoral roll seems to be a complete sham. my ex in rawtenstall claimed she split with her ex before moving into the house she's in now with just the kids, yet he's on the roll. I've never got an explanation other than he helped her get the house, I don't see what thats got to do with being on an electoral roll for voting and to me means he should be living there. It seems a very lax system, that allows that.

[Phylum]

Our local prison, which is the catergory 1 Whitemore, has had a wind turbine built beside it. Apparently, the blades reflect sunlight into the cells and keeps them awake. The turbine is turned off each night, till mid-day next day, so as not to upset them.

[Neil]

Do they not have curtains?

[Phylum]

What I would like to know is, what are they still doing in bed?............

[Neil]

Good point. They should turn it back on at 6am.

[Neil]

And why turn it off at night when there is no sun?