Referedum on EU Treaty - Page 2

jaysay · 05-03-2008, 10:14

I agree with the common thread on this subject and the poll at the begining clearly shows what people think, the common markets was good as a trading pact, but what is being debated today is totally different. Wynonie has quite rightly said its taking us nearer to a Federal Europe, which is totally wrong in my opinion, most of our problems stem from the EU, we don't want more problems we want less

accyman · 05-03-2008, 10:31

i think the only way we will get labour to deal with this democraticly will be to have a huge protest on a similar scale of the poll tax riots because unless the public are rioting they know damn well the majority of the people of britain will sit back and accept it no matter how much they dislike it.

the majority of people didnt want to go to war with iraq the last time and our labour MP did what he was supposed to do and voted against going to war with iraq , sory no he didnt he went against our wishes and did as he was told by tony blair so i dont hold out much hope of him listening to us this time either

to be fair he may well have been on here posting that he is with the poeple of hyndburn on this matter and i havnt yet noticed it but i am curious if he would act as to what the people want or what gordon brown wants

trading with europe is fine but europe telling us what to do , making our laws etc is in my eyes a take over, its like germany etc having world war 3 and winning without even firing a bullet

Wynonie Harris · 05-03-2008, 13:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by accyman

to be fair he may well have been on here posting that he is with the poeple of hyndburn on this matter and i havnt yet noticed it but i am curious if he would act as to what the people want or what gordon brown wants

Here's your answer on that one!

http://www.accringtonweb.com/forum/f...e-36301-2.html

jambutty · 05-03-2008, 14:23

I could accept Brown’s insistence that we fall in with the EU lock, stock and barrel if he, or rather Labour, had been voted into office (note I do not say power) by the majority of the UK electorate. But they weren’t. They were voted in only by a majority who voted, which was a MINORITY of the electorate.

Brown should call a referendum on the issue. After all a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Acrylic-bob · 05-03-2008, 14:54

Brown and Nu-Labour insist that the Lisbon Treaty is different from the rejected Constitution, thus a referendum on ratification of the treaty is not important and will not be allowed. Valerie Giscard-d'Estang, who co-authored both the constitution and the treaty (so he should know) says it is 98% the same document.

I voted against remaining in the Common Market, as it was then, in1975. I have seen or heard nothing in the succeeding years to convince me that I was wrong. Indeed almost everything I have seen or heard about the Common Market, the EEC and the European Union convinces me that it is the most colossal waste of time and money. It creates the environment where large and small scale frauds not only thrive but, become institutionalised. It robs each of the sovereign nations of Europe of their their very sovereignty and their individual identities.

The EU is a beurocratic cancer, which must be resisted at every step.

Of course our respected Member of Parliament will, as usual, do whatever the Labour whips tell him to do, so there is not much point in lobbying him before this evenings vote. However, a note pointing out that actions have consequences and that the people of Hyndburn have a long memory when it comes to deciding who will represent us in the next Parliament, would not go amiss.

Greg Pope · 05-03-2008, 16:47

The EU Constitution died when it was rejected by the French two years ago, and what we now have is a treaty which reforms the way the EU runs in order to accomodate the fact that it has been enlarged and now has 27 member countries. Whether you agree with that statement tends to depend on whether you think Britain should remain in the EU or not.

It seems to me that some of the opponents of the treaty are being a little less than totally honest with us. If you support the EU and want it to run better then surely this treaty is a reasonable way forward. If, however, you are opposed to British membership of the EU you should be honest enough to say so and call for us to have a referendum on withdrawing altogether - don't call for a referendum on the treaty as a way of bashing the EU by proxy. As it happens I think we probably should have a referendum at some point on whether we stay in the EU or not, as it is a radically different organisation to the one on which we had a referendum in 1975.

A couple of quick points in response to those made by others: it's hard to see how I am ignoring the wishes of Hyndburn voters - of the 67,000 electors in the constituency I have been contacted by fewer than 10 on this issue; I also don't see how I ignored the wishes of voters over Iraq - hindsight may be a wonderful thing but at the time opinion polls showed a constant (if small) majority in favour of the war.

garinda · 05-03-2008, 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Pope

I think we probably should have a referendum at some point on whether we stay in the EU or not, as it is a radically different organisation to the one on which we had a referendum in 1975.

If you are win a Private Member's Bill, perhaps you could suggest it.

andrewb · 05-03-2008, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Pope

The EU Constitution died when it was rejected by the French two years ago, and what we now have is a treaty which reforms the way the EU runs in order to accomodate the fact that it has been enlarged and now has 27 member countries. Whether you agree with that statement tends to depend on whether you think Britain should remain in the EU or not.

Not at all. I want Britain to remain in the EU, it is good as an economic market. However I simply do not wish to hand over ANY additional powers to the EU. It's not at all a case of pulling out, but a case of not handing over further sovereignty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Pope

It seems to me that some of the opponents of the treaty are being a little less than totally honest with us. If you support the EU and want it to run better then surely this treaty is a reasonable way forward. If, however, you are opposed to British membership of the EU you should be honest enough to say so and call for us to have a referendum on withdrawing altogether - don't call for a referendum on the treaty as a way of bashing the EU by proxy. As it happens I think we probably should have a referendum at some point on whether we stay in the EU or not, as it is a radically different organisation to the one on which we had a referendum in 1975.

A couple of quick points in response to those made by others: it's hard to see how I am ignoring the wishes of Hyndburn voters - of the 67,000 electors in the constituency I have been contacted by fewer than 10 on this issue; I also don't see how I ignored the wishes of voters over Iraq - hindsight may be a wonderful thing but at the time opinion polls showed a constant (if small) majority in favour of the war.

You're painting the issue as black or white, that you either want to be in the EU or not. The EU issue has not been made apparent to voters, or I'm sure you'd get much more of a backlash. As soon as I post it here we have 90% of people wanting a referendum.

The very committee you're apart of says that the Constitution and the Treaty are the same, honour your commitment and vote for a referendum.

If you're confident of a victory due to odds of 67,000 to 10, why don't you hold up to your election manifesto and let the people have their say!

shakermaker · 05-03-2008, 18:17

A poll asking who wants a referendum proves nothing.
The political opponents of the Government wish to conduct an invalid Government opinion poll and give it the false identity of a referendum, because it will inevitably result in the opposition's favour.
Whenever the public are asked if they want a referendum on anything the majority will say yes blindly because corrupt opposition politicians dress the referendum up as 'power to the people'.

andrewb · 05-03-2008, 18:23

It's nothing to do with opposition parties wanting it, they ALL promised it in their 2005 manifestos.

Wynonie Harris · 05-03-2008, 19:07

This government promised a referendum on the EU constitution. After a couple of referendums in other countries proved that the constitution was never going to be accepted by the electorate at large, the constitution was rehashed as the Treaty of Lisbon. Even supporters of European integration like Giscard-d'Estang accept that the two entities are practically the same. Therefore, if the government had any integrity at all, they would keep their word and give us a referendum.

And, Greg, I think it's a bit rich branding people who simply want your government to deliver on their manifesto pledges (a manifesto which you were voted in on) as "less than honest". If anybody's being less than honest it's you lot!

Acrylic-bob · 05-03-2008, 19:09

Just heard that the amendment was defeated by 311 to 248 votes. So, No Referendum!

jambutty · 05-03-2008, 19:10

The government got their way by 63 votes.

But then we always knew that it would take a major miracle for us to get our say on the issue.

andrewb · 05-03-2008, 19:19

When the next general election comes round at least we now know for sure that Greg Pope has no quarrels with voting directly against what he said he would do in Labours manifesto.

Acrylic-bob · 05-03-2008, 20:05

It beats me why, with a reported 80% of the population in favour of a referendum, our elected representatives felt justified in disregarding the national sense of unease over this issue.

What next?

I suppose the campaign for a referendum on getting out of the EU altogether starts here!