Referendum is a load of crap.!!

[Margaret Pilkington]

My memory goes back a long way too.
I recall the European Economic Community being promoted as a trading organisation, rather than the huge political beast it has become.
Yes, the media did dub the EEC as the 'common market'.....I think this was done because using the full title was a mouthful, but also, as you say, it seemed less of a threat.


This so called trading partnership has never had equality at its heart.
Take for instance the Common Agricultural Policy. Farmers were paid not to cultivate their fields. Not to produce foodstuffs.
Why was this do you think? Well, it does not take an Einstein to work out that if we did not produce our own food then we would have to buy it....and we would have to buy it from one of the countries in the 'common market'.
Do you remember the butter mountains....the wine lakes, the surplus of good produced by the 'common market'?
These found their way into our shops and made home produced stuff far less competitive....so producers gave up producing food for the home market....and as the 'common market' had made our food less competitive in our own country, it was obvious that we would not be exporting our food to them......so competition against their goods was wiped out.....and that is a 'market'?

A couple of years ago there was a huge outcry against the practice of fish being caught and not being saleable due to some barmy EU regulations.

Many varieties of apples have died out because they did not meet the EU criteria.....this was not because they were not good to eat, but because some bureaucrat had deemed them to be illegal to sell( I long for a lovely Russet Apple...But never ever see them nowadays).

I consider myself reasonably politically aware. (Even though I do not have any political affiliation)I do not just swallow what the media tell me, I like to seek out information so that I can make informed decisions.

I have not got a clue as to who my MEP is.
I do not ever remember voting for an MEP.
I do not recall ever having been canvassed for my support for any MEP. I do not ever recall what policies my MEP promoted....what he/she offered to gain for our area.
I am pretty sure I am not alone in this.

If you went round Accrington today and asked 100 resident who their MEP is I would be surprised if 2% could tell you.(many would not understand the question unless you ask them in their mother tongue - which is not English, which they haven't bothered to learn)
As far as I am concerned Turkey is not in Europe....and yet this country is being admitted to the European Union. How long will it be before They are asking China to join?

The EU is anti democracy. I have never felt more strongly about an issue than I do about leaving the EU.....however difficult this may be, it is better than the prospect of remaining in this self serving organisation.

[Margaret Pilkington]

All that having been said, I consider that there are only two hopes of getting out of the EU.
Bob Hope and No Hope.....seeing as Bob Hope is long dead it can only be one thing.

If we vote the wrong way we will be sent back to do it over until we get it right(right in the views of the EU, I mean)....did I say the EU was undemocratic? Oh Yes..... I did. This just proves it.

[Lucysgirl]

Originally Posted by accyman

every single deal cameron makes to keep us in the EU can be turned back after the vote and more than likely will be

there is absolutely nothing preventing any deal been broken once a stay in result is made

That might have been the case when there were only a handful of members who mainly kow towed to the whims and wishes of Germany and France. When Major managed to get them to agree to opening up the membership we've had a better record of thwarting the big guns.
Other western European countries also have their benefit systems hijacked. From what I hear from my German cyberpal and also from foreign newsreels I think we have a very good chance of:
(1) closing the door to people who haven't got a job to come to.
(2) putting an end to sending large benefits abroad to support families in their own countries.

(3) I'm pretty sure that now mass migration is occurring and other member countries are now experiencing the same problems we have, they'll want some mechanism to curb them becoming multi cultural countries too. For this reason I think that they'll reinstate the old veto system which they removed because they were sick of us using it - but so that they can save face it will have a different name of course..

(4) For the same reason as (3), I think they'll introduce (a) time restrictions on failed job seeking migrants and (b) a four year rule, then you go home, for asylum seekers. Both categories, who up to now, have been able to use free legal means to prolong their stay.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I like your optimism Rena, but do not share it.
Some of the things you have said are what David Cameron put forward. We are led to believe it was a struggle to get concessions such as stopping migrants from sending benefits home to children in their home country(benefitting their economy, not ours)and a time restriction on migrants who fail to find employment.

The concessions which our PM says he has an agreement on may disappear like summer snow when and if the referendum results are for us to stay in.
This is because those who gave assurances in those negotiations will not be the ones who have the ultimate say so.......and we have been told that at the outset.....so these promises don't really exist in any real sense.
We will also be made to pay(and not necessarily in financial terms) for having the gall to suggest that the EU needs to reform.
If this suggestion had come from some other country(and I know that since we have made it clear that we do not like the way the EU is going, others have also said that they would like reforms) then I think it would have been looked upon more favourably...but we are the 'upstarts' and need teaching a lesson.

No, let us get the hell out of there!

[Lucysgirl]

I'm enjoying this debate Margaret, but I think I might have to make more than one posting to cover the points you made.


You said:- "A couple of years ago there was a huge outcry against the practice of fish being caught and not being saleable due to some barmy EU regulations."


For the last 30-40 years I have had steam coming out of my ears and I bounce off the ceiling whenever the subject of EU Agriculture and Fisheries Policy comes up. I've written to every government and given poor Greg Pope an ear bashing - all agree with me but the wheels of the Commission grind slow. I was most definitely put off Farage and his party when he couldn't be bothered to attend the meetings to set up a revised policy.
I totally blame the Commission's dunderhead short sighted Fisheries Policy these last several decades for the decline in fish stocks. The scheduling of these meetings has to change and also the length of time taken to change regulations has to be shortened and red tape got rid of..

The members sitting in the Commission seem to have all read some rosey book that historically describes a collection of fishermen's boats in a harbour/port as a "herring fleet" or "deep sea cod fleet". From these phrases they set out the regulations whereby a boat owner is allowed to catch a quota of a specific species. They also didn't take into account that fish don't live in one space, they travel about thus in a week when ther's no herring the fishermen return empty handed, yet in another week there's an abundance of them but the regulations were so rigid that the catch had to be restrained and even a small excess of herring had to be thrown back into the sea..
Just like on terraferma, there's a pecking order where large fish of prey, such as cod, eat smaller fish and smaller fish eat even smaller fish, etc., etc.
e.g. mackerel eat sardines..... pollack, hake, tuna and dogfish all eat herring

This means that even though a fishing boat might have gone fishing for a shoal of herring he would most likely catch the fish that was preying on the herring. Once upon a time all fish could be brought back to the fish market and sold, but under the Commission's regulations that ended. No account was taken that fish mingle in the sea and tons of unlicenced (and unfortunately dead or dying) fish were having to be thrown back into the sea.

The silliest scenario I ever saw was in a "fly on the wall" documentary where several small fishing boats had seen on their radar an absolutely massive shoal of herring. When the nets were hauled out of the water it was discovered that they were full of fish officially called "sprats" (very small type of herring). Of coure they had to be thrown back into the sea for the seagulls to gorge themselves on. Yet within view was a very large trawler happily hauling in net after net of the sprats because they had an appropriate licence

There's one sad postscript to the town I was born in. The fishing port is devoid of ships and buildings, as the latter have been demolished.but not replaced. The fishermen families want a memorial to the men who sailed and died at sea. The bright young things and sophisticated incomers on the council have allocated what they think is a suitable space for this, which has upset the locals because that just happens to be where for hundreds of years the fish guts and entrails were cast.

[Lucysgirl]

I'm nodding my head at this point Margaret:

You said:-
"Many varieties of apples have died out because they did not meet the EU criteria.....this was not because they were not good to eat, but because some bureaucrat had deemed them to be illegal to sell( I long for a lovely Russet Apple...But never ever see them nowadays)".

A whole pub full of us were incredulous that they wouldn't accept our baking apple. I'm sure we all like the continental apple strudel with its addition of nutmeg to taste but you still can't beat the tasty British (baking) Apple pie, which used to be far less pricey than the other varieties..

Cox's orange pippins has always been my favourite but I mostly blame the supermarkets for the decline and disappearance of many of our once popular apple varieties. Their excuse being that their customers would only accept perfectly formed fruit such as the newly invented but tasteless French "golden delicious". I notice this last year or so that the supermarket has started putting a few baking apples on their shelves but the price is exhorbitant, probably due to its rarity these days.

[Margaret Pilkington]

I used to get my Russets from various markets.....they can keep their Pink Lady, their Gala, their Braeburn and the Mac Reds(though you don't see those very often these days)....I like Cox's pippins too....and I still see these from time to time and I buy them to go with lettuce on a salad.
My points were to illustrate the inane rulings which have come out of this trading agreement.
I think the Fishing policy did for Fleetwood, and Grimsby too...but back in 2013 I think the fishing quotas were relaxed, but by then the damage to our fishing fleets was complete....and again.....no more competition from those pesky Brits.

The topic of the EU does nothing for my health as I get very irate at the things that have happened in the past and we have just blithely accepted them as a done deal.

I am a bit like that other famous lady who was called Margaret, but only in the respect of 'this lady is not for turning'.

[DaveinGermany]

Not sure if you're aware or not but the Dutch will be holding a "vote" tomorrow on signing up to an EU agreement for further integration of the Ukraine into the EU fold. Apparently the other 27 member states have agreed to this (UK included, did anyone ask you your opinion? I thought not!).

It wasn't that long back that tensions were rising in the region between Russia & the EU/Ukraine due to EU "Expansionism" & Russia feeling somewhat miffed about encroachment into their sphere of sovereignty. Although not headline news it's still going on, and the "Remainians" are saying being part of the EU is good for our security!! Really???

Makes as much sense as prodding a hornets nest with a stick!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/dutch-vo...ope-1459762411

[Margaret Pilkington]

Let us hope that the Dutch do send ripples throughout the EU. It is way past the time when action needed to be taken...the status qou doesn't cut it anymore.
It is time many of these nations woke up and smelled the coffee.
If things continue in their current vein, I can see the racial tensions being a cause of great conflict throughout the EU....I won't say war, but I think it will come pretty close to it.

It does not auger well for security does it?

[Margaret Pilkington]

I have just read some more about this Dutch referendum and although it is asking the Dutch people to vote, the Dutch government do not have to follow through on the results...so a 'No' vote would not mean that the Ukraine would not be further integrated into the EU.If the government agree to further integration of Ukraine, then that is what will happen regardless of the views of the people........so is this to be considered a pointless exercise? I don't know the answer to that one!

[Less]

Lucygirl, am I just reading crap or is there something that I don't understand about your ramblings?
I'm not ducking for apples nor am I fishing for euro compliments, just put what you mean in simple sentences that I can understand, please.

[Guinness]

Originally Posted by Less

Lucygirl, am I just reading crap or is there something that I don't understand about your ramblings?
I'm not ducking for apples nor am I fishing for euro compliments, just put what you mean in simple sentences that I can understand, please.

You are not reading crap, you are reading obvuscation...

It's a time honoured Tory tradition to appear more knowledgable by posting alleged facts, figures and dodgy personal anecdotes without ever providing proof of content.

And if all else fails..chuck in a slice of racism

Originally Posted by Lucysgirl

we came back to England 1970 we couldn't believe the changes made in just a few years away from home. It seemed as if the then government had opened a flood gate & got rid of and replaced all the smiling Gracie Fields/Charlie Chester/George Formby type shop keepers and bus conductors - especially galling was newly installed foreign shop keepers charging an illegal price for a Milk Marketing Board bottle of milk and the foreign conductors not knowing what a bus terminus was.

Notwithstanding the fact that the government of the day invited these people to come because we had too many jobs and too few people..something her idealistic mate sorted less than 20 years later by destroying jobs in manufacturing, car making, ship building, coal mining and steelmaking, to name but a few, and destroying inherent lifestyles far more than adding a few pence to the price of a bottle of milk or being served by a 1940's filmstar lookalike..

Like I said....obvuscation...

Stay in...Bad

Get out....Good

[Lucysgirl]

Hi to you late comers - I've been wondering when men would re-join the debate.

One thing is obvious to me and that is the difference between male and female brains - we like to chew over absolutely everything, but it seems all the males want to do is sling mud at me.

I was hoping people in various trades would join in, so we could hear views from their perspective and maybe even
(whisper) an estate agent

You obviously haven't noticed that I'm agreeing with Margaret on everything but I still want to expand the debate.

[Eric]

Originally Posted by Lucysgirl

I'm nodding my head at this point Margaret:

You said:-
"Many varieties of apples have died out because they did not meet the EU criteria.....this was not because they were not good to eat, but because some bureaucrat had deemed them to be illegal to sell( I long for a lovely Russet Apple...But never ever see them nowadays)".

A whole pub full of us were incredulous that they wouldn't accept our baking apple. I'm sure we all like the continental apple strudel with its addition of nutmeg to taste but you still can't beat the tasty British (baking) Apple pie, which used to be far less pricey than the other varieties..

Cox's orange pippins has always been my favourite but I mostly blame the supermarkets for the decline and disappearance of many of our once popular apple varieties. Their excuse being that their customers would only accept perfectly formed fruit such as the newly invented but tasteless French "golden delicious". I notice this last year or so that the supermarket has started putting a few baking apples on their shelves but the price is exhorbitant, probably due to its rarity these days.

If you are interested in the disappearance of certain fruits and veggies etc., may I suggest Mooney's Seeds of the Earth: A Private or Public Resource.

[Lucysgirl]

Hi again Margaret - this post is about the absurd butter mountain that you mentioned and where the Policy procedures were so lax that we had goodness knows how many rogues laughing all the way to the bank. They found it easy to buy cheap butter which they obtained from the despatch outwards gate, they then drove their lorries to Ireland and then back into mainland Europe where they got paid the going retail price from the goods inward office.

To be fair, we did have a similar agricultural policy that began in WWII and I know it was still in place when I married in '64 but I don't know if it changed prior to us joining the EU. I'm from the flat lands of the eastern coast which was used for crops (grain and veggies) with a field here and there where cattle and sheep grazed. From conversations with farmers in the local watering holes:: the government agent would come round, they'd discuss what crops would be wanted, they'd be sown - I know after the war in late 1950s, a farmer walked into the bar and said the inspector had been and told him not to pick his bumper crop of potatoes but to turn the land over, at the time I was shocked but that's how our governments controlled the prices in the shops - the farmer still got paid by the government for not producing his potatoes, in other words even if the crops failed that year due to bad weather the farmers could still expect a handout from the government - obviously what could happen if the nation were at war again meant buying from abroad and having our merchant shipping sunk. In the late 1950s I was shown around one of the port warehouses which could hold 4,000 cattle at a time for export, it seemed to me at the time that we were doing quite well if that's how we brought in the money.

All that changed when we joined the Market and those subsidies stopped.

I didn't like the Common Market ag.policy at all although knowing the hardship of the last war, I understood the reasoning behind having a few weeks supply in the form of the mountains of food and drink. What I didn't agree with was the policy of getting rid of the small farmers. Not that France toed the line, of course.

--

Turning to more modern times and the new Farming Subsidies - the old ways of shopping have gone and we mainly use the supermarkets, who resort to bullying tactics to get the deals they want and quite often don't bother to settle their bills and that's not just with the British suppliers but also their foreign suppliers. We probably eat more foreign grown rice & veggies than spuds and sprouts these days so we currently don't need as much farmland, unless we plan for a burgeoning population when it will come back into use again. It's a debatable subject of whethr or not to give handouts and if so how much because we know farmers take in holiday makers, they also have an income from other ideas they've put into practice.

You said: Take for instance the Common Agricultural Policy. Farmers were paid not to cultivate their fields. Not to produce foodstuffs.
If you remember we'd had thousands of cattle shot, the sheep had caught "blue tongue", up in Northumbria pigs were dying of disease that was brought into the country by a government certified pig swill farm and there were reports of farmers so deep in debt that they were committing suicide. They needed help and I think I'm right in saying that Tony Blair managed to get money to pay the farmers to be custodians of the land and money was given to plant trees and rebuild non maintained walls/hedges plus they were to leave land to nature in order that bees, etc. would survive and increase. Smaller farms haven't survived - they're now in land banks owned by supermarkets, etc.and I hope they're not getting any of the money!!!

"This so called trading partnership has never had equality at its heart. - you can say that again. We've had to fight for what little we get.


P.S. This isn't about the Common Market but I was curious about the number of suicides and found this article, which shows it's happening elsewhere.

"In the U.S. the rate of farmer suicides is just under two times that of the general population. In the U.K. one farmer a week commits suicide. In China, farmers are killing themselves daily to protest the government taking over their prime agricultural lands for urbanization. In France, a farmer dies by suicide every two days. Australia reports one farmer suicides every four days. India yearly reports more than 17,627 farmer suicides. — Newsweek 2014"